Notational Queries

[Gurn Blanston]

So, all of you composing guys, maybe some or another of you would feel up to explaining some oddities to those laymen among us. I always have a bunch of questions, and no ready answer available (the online music courses seem geared towards conventional answers rather than exceptions).

The is a lost keyboard sonata by Haydn in the key of B Major. Despite being lost, we know of it because Haydn wrote the incipit for the first movement in his Entwurf Katalog, so it existed at one time. Anyway, the question; there are 5 sharps, of course, but the last sharp is in parentheses like so (#).  What's with that? 

Thanks,
GB

[DaveF]

I'm an editing rather than a composing guy, but I wonder whether Haydn just felt embarrassed by so many sharps and was trying to reassure the performer that the A wasn't "really" sharp.  There is a symphony, as I don't need to tell you, also in B - Hob.I.46 - how does he notate the incipit of that in the Katalog?

DF

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm an editing rather than a composing guy, but I wonder whether Haydn just felt embarrassed by so many sharps and was trying to reassure the performer that the A wasn't "really" sharp.  There is a symphony, as I don't need to tell you, also in B - Hob.I.46 - how does he notate the incipit of that in the Katalog?

DF

Thanks for the thought, Dave. While it's true that Haydn generally stayed with no more than 4 sharps or flats, wandering outside of that wouldn't have bothered him. Depends who he was writing for, as you can imagine.   Of course, the performer in this case would have been himself, so no psychology needed!

Unfortunately I don't have a reproduction of the EK all my own, I've been looking for Haydn: Drei Katalog for several years now, to no avail. I figure if I find one for sale, I can't afford it anyway, but who knows? 

Cheers,

[jochanaan]

Mixolydian mode?

[Ken B]

Mixolydian mode?

I take mine shaken, not stirred.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, you guys...

How about an easy one then?   Easy for you, that is.

So I look at an incipit and I see it has no sharps or flats. How can I tell whether it is in C Major or a minor? Sometimes the first four bars don't have anything definitive to tell me. Is there something else that can define it for me?

[Karl Henning]

Do you mean specifically a Haydn incipit?  (Because it would surprise me if four measures of Haydn would not suggest one key or the other.)  Do you have an illustration? 

[Karl Henning]

Is the incipit just a single line on treble clef?

If you see any G#'s, it would suggest a minor, as G# is the leading-tone for A (major or minor) . . . but you likely knew that.

[Gurn Blanston]

Do you mean specifically a Haydn incipit?  (Because it would surprise me if four measures of Haydn would not suggest one key or the other.)  Do you have an illustration? 

I could scan something. It is really more of a thing which happens frequently rather than just a particular event. When I'm reading, the books are rife with musical examples and they assume I can glance at the example and tell overmuch about it. I see 3 sharps and look at my Circle of Fifths and I say 'ah, A Major', but it could be f# minor and I wouldn't know better. 

Is the incipit just a single line on treble clef?

If you see any G#'s, it would suggest a minor, as G# is the leading-tone for A (major or minor) . . . but you likely knew that.

No, I know about the concept of leading tines, but not anything specific. I am hoping that someday I will be reading one of my books and I won't be skipping over the examples. For now, though...

[Gurn Blanston]

Is the incipit just a single line on treble clef?

Nearly always. Occasionally if the bass is leading out, then it is more important and it is a single line on the bass clef.

[amw]

The is a lost keyboard sonata by Haydn in the key of B Major. Despite being lost, we know of it because Haydn wrote the incipit for the first movement in his Entwurf Katalog, so it existed at one time. Anyway, the question; there are 5 sharps, of course, but the last sharp is in parentheses like so (#).  What's with that? 

There was an old habit, at one time, of notating minor keys with one less flat in the key signature than is currently common practice—thus C minor, for instance, might have a two-flat key signature instead of three. This was done because the sixth scale degree would be either A flat or A natural depending on circumstances (if you ever studied scales when learning to play an instrument, and had to work out the difference between melodic, harmonic and natural minor, the nature of those circumstances will be more understandable). The A-sharp in parentheses might make sense if—bear in mind this is only conjectural—the key of the lost piano sonata was not B major but C-sharp minor. In C-sharp minor the melodic minor scale in its ascending form would be C-sharp, D-sharp, E, F-sharp, G-sharp, A-sharp, B-sharp, C-sharp.  This is usually accounted for by a four-sharp key signature but it's possible Haydn figured he could save on readability by adding an extra sharp, since being the performer, he'd know when the A was supposed to be sharp and when it wasn't.

Alternately it's possible he just forgot what key the sonata was in when he was making the catalogue.

So I look at an incipit and I see it has no sharps or flats. How can I tell whether it is in C Major or a minor? Sometimes the first four bars don't have anything definitive to tell me. Is there something else that can define it for me?

Haydn can be a sneaky one where that is concerned unfortunately. I don't think the incipit of Op. 33/1 would tell you much either.

[Gurn Blanston]

There was an old habit, at one time, of notating minor keys with one less flat in the key signature than is currently common practice—thus C minor, for instance, might have a two-flat key signature instead of three. This was done because the sixth scale degree would be either A flat or A natural depending on circumstances (if you ever studied scales when learning to play an instrument, and had to work out the difference between melodic, harmonic and natural minor, the nature of those circumstances will be more understandable). The A-sharp in parentheses might make sense if—bear in mind this is only conjectural—the key of the lost piano sonata was not B major but C-sharp minor. In C-sharp minor the melodic minor scale in its ascending form would be C-sharp, D-sharp, E, F-sharp, G-sharp, A-sharp, B-sharp, C-sharp.  This is usually accounted for by a four-sharp key signature but it's possible Haydn figured he could save on readability by adding an extra sharp, since being the performer, he'd know when the A was supposed to be sharp and when it wasn't.

Well, that certainly gives me something to think about. One thing that could be is Haydn didn't put the sharp in, and the author/editor of the book added it in parentheses. I saw this done once in a Mozart book, can't remember the circumstances, just the event.

Alternately it's possible he just forgot what key the sonata was in when he was making the catalogue.
Haydn can be a sneaky one where that is concerned unfortunately. I don't think the incipit of Op. 33/1 would tell you much either.

Yes he can. I was reading about Op 54 #2 in C last night and really, you have to go way off into it before you can say for sure what key you're in.... OK, may be in... 

[amw]

Well, that certainly gives me something to think about. One thing that could be is Haydn didn't put the sharp in, and the author/editor of the book added it in parentheses. I saw this done once in a Mozart book, can't remember the circumstances, just the event.

Yes that also happens sometimes, when musicologists think they understand the music better than Haydn or Mozart or Schubert or whoever it is did. >.>