Books about 20th/21st Century Composers

[EigenUser]

That Boulez-Cage correspondence is something I must seek out...

But you guys have me intrigued: does it end with Pierre and John calling each other names and referring to the other's mother in impolite ways? 

I saw an interview with Boulez where he spoke very highly of John Cage. I just found it again:
http://www.youtube.com/v/qKbPgUTgZXM
Of course, Boulez's first words in the video contain his characteristic arrogance presented in such a friendly, charming way. "I knew the American people long before anybody else." This man loves to be first in everything. 

[petrarch]

That Boulez-Cage correspondence is something I must seek out...

But you guys have me intrigued: does it end with Pierre and John calling each other names and referring to the other's mother in impolite ways? 

Not at all. The letters in Nattiez's book cover 1949-1962 (admittedly too early to be an indicator of how their friendship would develop in later years) and all are very amicable and enthusiastic throughout.

[ritter]

Not at all. The letters in Nattiez's book cover 1949-1962 (admittedly too early to be an indicator of how their friendship would develop in later years) and all are very amicable and enthusiastic throughout.

Cool, petrarch! Do you know what language they corresponded in? Boulez's English in the late 40s and early 50s must have been quite limited, and I don't know what Cage's command of French was. I ask because Nattiez's book  was originally published in 1991 in French (now very difficult to find), and the later English version (easily available) mentions a translator... .

Boulez often has this arrogant albeit very charming and polite style pointed out by EigenUser   . I remember this on Stockhausen (whom I once read Boulez refer to as his only "peer")--the underlining is mine--:

Q: Do you feel that your life has been too much about revolution?
PB: Not enough.
Q: Not enough? Really?
PB: Really. I think, for instance, that Stockhausen was more inventive than me.
Q: But surely things like the Helikopter-Streichquartett [in which four members of a string quartet play in independent helicopters and the music is relayed back to a hall, being performed in the skies over Salzburg, 2003 ...] were dead-end innovations?
PB: I said he was inventive. I didn't say he was critical of himself. You would have to organise an accident to make Stockhausen's Helikopter-Streichquartett interesting. One helicopter would have to fall down or something [laughs].


http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/godfather-avant-garde-how-he-changed-music-forever?page=0,0

[San Antone]

I believe John Cage spoke French rather well.  I doubt John Cage ever said anything really negative about other composers.  He seemed to have a rather bemused attitude about all the strange things said about him.

[Karl Henning]

I believe John Cage spoke French rather well.  I doubt John Cage ever said anything really negative about other composers.  He seemed to have a rather bemused attitude about all the strange things said about him.

My impression, as well.

[EigenUser]

Cool, petrarch! Do you know what language they corresponded in? Boulez's English in the late 40s and early 50s must have been quite limited, and I don't know what Cage's command of French was. I ask because Nattiez's book  was originally published in 1991 in French (now very difficult to find), and the later English version (easily available) mentions a translator... .

Boulez often has this arrogant albeit very charming and polite style pointed out by EigenUser   . I remember this on Stockhausen (whom I once read Boulez refer to as his only "peer")--the underlining is mine--:

Q: Do you feel that your life has been too much about revolution?
PB: Not enough.
Q: Not enough? Really?
PB: Really. I think, for instance, that Stockhausen was more inventive than me.
Q: But surely things like the Helikopter-Streichquartett [in which four members of a string quartet play in independent helicopters and the music is relayed back to a hall, being performed in the skies over Salzburg, 2003 ...] were dead-end innovations?
PB: I said he was inventive. I didn't say he was critical of himself. You would have to organise an accident to make Stockhausen's Helikopter-Streichquartett interesting. One helicopter would have to fall down or something [laughs].


http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/godfather-avant-garde-how-he-changed-music-forever?page=0,0

I wonder if he was alluding to (and poking fun at) Stockhausen's 9-11 comments.

Coincidentally, I'm listening to Boulez (Derive I) now...

[ritter]

I wonder if he was alluding to (and poking fun at) Stockhausen's 9-11 comments.....

Doubt that he would do that, not really his style (in my experience)

Coincidentally, I'm listening to Boulez (Derive I) now...

Are you enjoying Dérive I? I'm not that keen on this particular piece (can't really say why  )...

[Octave]

I believe John Cage spoke French rather well.  I doubt John Cage ever said anything really negative about other composers.  He seemed to have a rather bemused attitude about all the strange things said about him.

My impression is that the bemusement could co-exist with and cushion some funny ambivalence, like his comment on Boulez's PIANO SONATA NO. 2 (iirc): "We trembled before the complexity of it."*  That is funny!
But there's no reason to take that as disparagement.

* Source has become obscure to me, I am quoting from memory; almost definitely one of the interviews excerpted in the Kostelanetz CONVERSING book, also probably a recollection from much later, after the falling out.

[EigenUser]

Are you enjoying Dérive I? I'm not that keen on this particular piece (can't really say why  )...

Yes, I love "Derive I". I'm not a big fan of Boulez as a composer because I dislike serialism and "Derive I" is the only piece so far that I've found to really enjoy -- perhaps because it reminds me a little bit of "Melodien" and it's very bubbly-sounding. I still have to try its sequel again (I didn't like it last time I heard it).

[petrarch]

I doubt John Cage ever said anything really negative about other composers.

Same here. There is an interesting and very funny tidbit, though, where Cage, Boulez and Tudor were traveling by car somewhere here in the States, on their way to some concert or lecture, with Tudor driving. Half way to their destination, their car ran out of gas. Cage got slightly annoyed because Boulez thought the occurrence was très inélégant .

[torut]

Not at all. The letters in Nattiez's book cover 1949-1962 (admittedly too early to be an indicator of how their friendship would develop in later years) and all are very amicable and enthusiastic throughout.

Yes, the Boulez's negative comment was made around 1970.

I doubt John Cage ever said anything really negative about other composers.  He seemed to have a rather bemused attitude about all the strange things said about him.

It is not that Cage never criticized other composers (for example, History of Experimental Music in the United States published in 1959), but yes, I have not read anything he wrote that were aggressive, arrogant or insulting, even about who derided or mocked him. His responses were often humorous and admirable.

[torut]

My impression is that the bemusement could co-exist and cushion some funny ambivalence, like his comment on Boulez's PIANO SONATA NO. 2 (iirc): "We trembled before the complexity of it."*  That is funny!
But there's no reason to take that as disparagement.

* Source has become obscure to me, I am quoting from memory; almost definitely one of the interviews excerpted in the Kostelanetz CONVERSING book, also probably a recollection from much later, after the falling out.

Was the comment made in a light joke fashion, maybe? Cage was so impressed by Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2 that he made efforts to realize its premere concert in USA, suggested to a publisher publishing it, wrote a program note and performed turning over of sheets of the music when Tudor played it in 1950. Such things could be done only from sincere admiration, I think.

[Octave]

Was the comment made in a light joke fashion, maybe? Cage was so impressed by Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2 that he made efforts to realize its premere concert in USA, suggested to a publisher publishing it, wrote a program note and performed turning over of sheets of the music when Tudor played it in 1950. Such things could be done only from sincere admiration, I think.

I would need to source the 'complexity' comment to assign an attitude to it, but you are certainly correct about Cage's admiration (or at least his cunning, canniness) re: Boulez c. late 40s into the 50s.  I'm just amused by the piquancy that the comment takes if read as understatement.  (And I can relate to 'trembling' before SONATA II, even just recently!)  But if I remember the rough date of the comment correctly, Cage's serpentine wit might make it a bit more....'multi-purpose' than just undiluted admiration.

With all the discussion of the punk memories of GMGers, one notable (possible) exception to Cage's putative easygoing remove from the fray, would be his ostensible harsh (political!) dismissal of a Glenn Branca's Indeterminate Activity Of Resultant Masses.  (Of course, he frames it in such a way that 'dismissal' might not really be the right term; but it's a sharper set of comments than I am accustomed to hearing from him.)  I am sorry to be lazy, but I don't have time to search up the best references for these comments for the moment.  Maybe this ~18-min ~1982 conversation with Wim Mertens via Ubu:
is.gd/mqqPXR  [mp3 link]
(I remember this recording being longer...sorry I cannot dig it up for the moment.)

Branca responded to this in a brief letter in MUSICWORKS ~1997, which I think was reproduced in the CD release of this piece.  Here is an image of his reponse, unfortunately not easy for me to read on this screen; it is the second text in this image:
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/sleepbyrd/inside4.jpg
(EDIT: I see now that towards the end of the Branca letter, he generally references Cage's ~attacks in other sources, all of which I remember checking out years ago.  It seems certain that they'd all be fairly easy to access now, if one desired to find them.)

I am much less interested in the namecalling aspect of this flap, than in a kind of confrontation of not just generations (?) but sensibilities.  Cage's invocation of 'fascism' seems kind of unfortunate, but even if it's misplaced, it's not exactly ham-fisted or lacking in zeitgeist relevance....Slavoj Zizek makes some similar points about Rammstein in a film-essay that came out last year, though I think his point there is a kind of vindication of irony as an act of subversion or reclamation or something.

There is also Cage's withering view of jazz, though (as with Adorno?) there was more iirc to that view than a simpleminded dismissal.  I will need time to source those comments again, though at one point several years ago there was a quite long discussion of these observations on the SILENCE discussion listserv.

[torut]

That image is difficult to read ... but thank you.
Just one reference regarding Jazz.

There is also Cage's withering view of jazz, though (as with Adorno?) there was more iirc to that view than a simpleminded dismissal.

John Cage - History of Experimental Music in the United States

Jazz per se derives from serious music. And when serious music derives  from it, the situation becomes rather silly.

This seems a little strange as Cage's comment. (I remember this because I just read the article recently.)

[torut]

The full text of Cage's Silence (containing History of ...) can be downloaded from here: http://archive.org/stream/silencelecturesw1961cage/silencelecturesw1961cage_djvu.txt

[petrarch]

Was the comment made in a light joke fashion, maybe? Cage was so impressed by Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2 that he made efforts to realize its premere concert in USA, suggested to a publisher publishing it, wrote a program note and performed turning over of sheets of the music when Tudor played it in 1950. Such things could be done only from sincere admiration, I think.

From a letter from Cage to Boulez, December 18, 1950:

"[At] the concert [a David Tudor performance of the 2nd Sonata the day before] (as I was turning pages for him) I had feelings of an exaltation equal to that you introduced me to 4 rue Beautreillis [Boulez's address in Paris]. Naturally the audience was divided (for the various reasons audiences are), but I can tell you with joy that you have here a strong and devoted following. Your music gives to those who love it an arousing and breathtaking enlightenment. I am still always trembling afterwards. (...) It was a great joy to hear many times all 4 mvmts. of the Sonata (...) the entire work is marvelous but the 4th mvt among them is transcendent."

Also from the same letter:

"My French is too bad; forgive me if I continue in English"

Throughout the correspondence, Cage writes in a mix of French and English. I believe Boulez wrote all letters in French.

[petrarch]

Boulez called Cage a 'performing monkey' after the breakdown.

Here is the full quote, from comments to Claude Samuel in a France-Culture broadcast in 1970 (the quote is included in the Nattiez book):

"John Cage is responsible just as Satie is responsible. He had a beneficial influence to the extent that he helped to burst the fetters of 1950s discipline. He did it with ingenuity and naivety. There was much humor in his work, and this ingenuity in wanting to break down discipline by showing up its absurdity and academicism. But after that, he hardly had anything but imitations. Now, to imitate an act is to be just a performing monkey. No thought is involved, but only acts which repeat themselves. And it is tiresome to see what are practically always the same acts done again and again for twelve years."

I don't think the breakdown was anything more than diverging aesthetics and we are all familiar with Boulez's sharp tongue. Boulez conducted Cage's Apartment House 1776 with the NYPO in 1976 and later invited Cage to IRCAM in 1979 to perform Roaratorio. Not something you would do if you thought it was just a mindless repetitive act of a performing monkey.

[torut]

Thank you for the sources, petrarch.

[ritter]

Thank you for the sources, petrarch.

+1 ... very interesting read! 

[Artem]

I have finished reading this book today. It's subject is very interesting, but it could have been written a little better, I think.

[asin]0300154305[/asin]