The Nielsen Nexus

[Mirror Image]

It's good writing, but it seems to me that a lot of it isn't actually a review of the cycle.

Don't get me wrong, I think you should be proud of the writing. I'm just of the view that a review of a particular recording should have more about the recording. I think Amazon does have places where you can write about the music and THEN outline preferred and non-preferred versions, and that may have been a better place for it.

I of course am very happy with Schønwandt's cycle, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks, you're right. I could have probably mentioned a bit more about why Schønwandt's cycle doesn't do much for me. I think what I did say about Schønwandt's cycle was more or less to the point and I suppose I could have gone into a side-by-side comparison with other favorite performances and how those particular performances check all the right boxes while Schønwandt's didn't. I'm just not one of those reviewers that can write a long novel or go into five paragraphs as to why I thought Schønwandt was this or that. I just don't have that kind of time to warrant a long-breathed review.

This said, I certainly understand where you're coming from and even sympathize with your opinion, but there were several other factors coming into play during the writing of this review and one of the main ones is simply time --- there's never enough of it.

[Mirror Image]

Orfeo, if your time permits, please give this performance from Bernstein of the 5th a listen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/y6o3JnyVRCw

After you've heard Lenny's 5th, go back to Schønwandt's performance of the 5th and tell me which performance you prefer and why. I'd greatly appreciate your participation here. If you don't want to or you simply can't do it today, I completely understand.

[Madiel]

To be honest, what I had in mind was more shortening the review, not lengthening it.

[Madiel]

Orfeo, if your time permits, please give this performance from Bernstein of the 5th a listen:

https://www.youtube.com/v/y6o3JnyVRCw

After you've heard Lenny's 5th, go back to Schønwandt's performance of the 5th and tell me which performance you prefer and why. I'd greatly appreciate your participation here. If you don't want to or you simply can't do it today, I completely understand.

Okay, today is a public holiday here as it happens, so I'll probably have time for a comparison. I'll get back to you!

[Mirror Image]

To be honest, what I had in mind was more shortening the review, not lengthening it.

Oh man, I'm definitely not going to shorten the review as I don't even know where I would put my own descriptions of the symphonies other than here. Well, also, it's not like anyone is actually going to read my review outside of GMG and if they do, then I'd be surprised if they didn't fall asleep during it.

[Mirror Image]

Okay, today is a public holiday here as it happens, so I'll probably have time for a comparison. I'll get back to you!

Well, this would be greatly appreciated not only by me but by other Nielsen fans here I'm sure. Looking forward to your findings.

[Mirror Image]

Speaking of Nielsen's 5th, I've got this Cambridge book lying around that I haven't read yet....I better get to it!

[asin]0521446325[/asin]

[Madiel]

Just noting, you're aware that Hurwitz loves Bernstein's 5th?

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15896/

And the original review of the Schønwandt 5th before the cycle was boxed (by Victor Carr Jr, not Hurwitz) also refers to Bernstein as the reference version. So I reserve the right to come back and say I thought both of them were awesome.

[Mirror Image]

Just noting, you're aware that Hurwitz loves Bernstein's 5th?

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15896/

And the original review of the Schønwandt 5th before the cycle was boxed (by Victor Carr Jr, not Hurwitz) also refers to Bernstein as the reference version. So I reserve the right to come back and say I thought both of them were awesome.

Oh, well sure. I don't know one Nielsen fan (or at least that I've spoken with) that doesn't like Lenny's performance of the 5th (and his Espansiva for that matter). You could very well love both the Schønwandt and Bernstein performances equally. If this ends up being the case, then my hat is off to you. You certainly hear something in Schønwandt that I seem to be missing or can't quite grasp.

[Madiel]

Okay, right, well...

Honestly, I suspect I'd love the 1st movement of the 5th no matter who played it. It was the thing that made me go wow and conclude I definitely needed a recording of the symphonies.

I'd say I probably prefer Bernstein, principally because he makes more of the first "percussion" episode. There's more drama in general, but that's the section where on a comparison I'd say that Schønwandt perhaps doesn't make enough of it. Later on in the movement I'm fine with both, though again Bernstein is undoubtedly the more dramatic and military.

I want to also observe this is the only one of the 1st movements that's slow, and that's important to point out because the reason I chose Schønwandt over a couple of other cycles after sampling wasn't because of slower movements, it was because of faster ones. I remember trialling some Allegros where Schønwandt allowed the music to breathe in places where others pressed on a bit harder.

And that's relevant now. For the 2nd movement, one of the Classics Today reviews refers to Bernstein's high level of excitement. And I can certainly hear that, but I do feel as if the opening section is set constantly on high voltage. Schønwandt might not be quite as propulsive initially, but there's more light and shade and to me that actually ends up making the louder passages more interesting. By giving my ears a slight rest in between I'm ready for the next bit. In the longer term I don't think Schønwandt is lacking energy (the clarinet is nicely manic in the Presto section). Is Bernstein bigger in the biggest moments? Yes.

So overall I'm leaning to Bernstein for one movement and Schønwandt for the other. It's a damn good piece of music either way.

[Karl Henning]

Okay, right, well...

Honestly, I suspect I'd love the 1st movement of the 5th no matter who played it. It was the thing that made me go wow and conclude I definitely needed a recording of the symphonies.

I'd say I probably prefer Bernstein, principally because he makes more of the first "percussion" episode. There's more drama in general, but that's the section where on a comparison I'd say that Schønwandt perhaps doesn't make enough of it. Later on in the movement I'm fine with both, though again Bernstein is undoubtedly the more dramatic and military.

I want to also observe this is the only one of the 1st movements that's slow, and that's important to point out because the reason I chose Schønwandt over a couple of other cycles after sampling wasn't because of slower movements, it was because of faster ones. I remember trialling some Allegros where Schønwandt allowed the music to breathe in places where others pressed on a bit harder.

And that's relevant now. For the 2nd movement, one of the Classics Today reviews refers to Bernstein's high level of excitement. And I can certainly hear that, but I do feel as if the opening section is set constantly on high voltage. Schønwandt might not be quite as propulsive initially, but there's more light and shade and to me that actually ends up making the louder passages more interesting. By giving my ears a slight rest in between I'm ready for the next bit. In the longer term I don't think Schønwandt is lacking energy (the clarinet is nicely manic in the Presto section). Is Bernstein bigger in the biggest moments? Yes.

So overall I'm leaning to Bernstein for one movement and Schønwandt for the other. It's a damn good piece of music either way.

Most interesting, thanks. (I enjoyed John's write-up, but agree that it was more about the music itself.) Fully agree that (to filter slightly) Schønwandt, too, does a damned fine job 

I find this post much to the point:

Counterpoint: I appreciate the Schønwandt set for its neoclassicist qualities, bringing out Nielsen's deep relationships to Brahms and Haydn. The interpretations sometimes lack rhythmic life (as in No. 3) but Nos. 2 and 6 in particular either avoid this problem or render it less noticeable.

(I need to revisit the Espansiva to see if I agree to the charge of Rhythmic Lifelessness  )

I find in Lenny generally a genial balance between getting detail right, and The Big Gesture. Perhaps because it is his generation/background, his bottom line trends to the Romantic, the Emotive, but I rarely find that this misshapes the music. I'm not at all saying that he misshaped Nielsen, I'm only explaining something of why I don't expect the same result from Lenny and from Schønwandt. I do like them both, and perhaps someday I'll draw up a defense of the latter 

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[Mirror Image]

Okay, right, well...

Honestly, I suspect I'd love the 1st movement of the 5th no matter who played it. It was the thing that made me go wow and conclude I definitely needed a recording of the symphonies.

I'd say I probably prefer Bernstein, principally because he makes more of the first "percussion" episode. There's more drama in general, but that's the section where on a comparison I'd say that Schønwandt perhaps doesn't make enough of it. Later on in the movement I'm fine with both, though again Bernstein is undoubtedly the more dramatic and military.

I want to also observe this is the only one of the 1st movements that's slow, and that's important to point out because the reason I chose Schønwandt over a couple of other cycles after sampling wasn't because of slower movements, it was because of faster ones. I remember trialling some Allegros where Schønwandt allowed the music to breathe in places where others pressed on a bit harder.

And that's relevant now. For the 2nd movement, one of the Classics Today reviews refers to Bernstein's high level of excitement. And I can certainly hear that, but I do feel as if the opening section is set constantly on high voltage. Schønwandt might not be quite as propulsive initially, but there's more light and shade and to me that actually ends up making the louder passages more interesting. By giving my ears a slight rest in between I'm ready for the next bit. In the longer term I don't think Schønwandt is lacking energy (the clarinet is nicely manic in the Presto section). Is Bernstein bigger in the biggest moments? Yes.

So overall I'm leaning to Bernstein for one movement and Schønwandt for the other. It's a damn good piece of music either way.

Thanks for your feedback here. Somehow I knew it was going to come down to you preferring both of them, which there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I like different performances for different reasons, too, but Schønwandt's performances have been difficult for me to appreciate.

Most interesting, thanks. (I enjoyed John's write-up, but agree that it was more about the music itself.) Fully agree that (to filter slightly) Schønwandt, too, does a damned fine job 

I find this post much to the point:

(I need to revisit the Espansiva to see if I agree to the charge of Rhythmic Lifelessness  )

I find in Lenny generally a genial balance between getting detail right, and The Big Gesture. Perhaps because it is his generation/background, his bottom line trends to the Romantic, the Emotive, but I rarely find that this misshapes the music. I'm not at all saying that he misshaped Nielsen, I'm only explaining something of why I don't expect the same result from Lenny and from Schønwandt. I do like them both, and perhaps someday I'll draw up a defense of the latter 

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Completely agree with you about Lenny's way with music, especially his Nielsen.

[Karl Henning]

[...] I like different performances for different reasons, too, but Schønwandt's performances have been difficult for me to appreciate.

Well, and the Sarge has also expressed disappointment.  It is a set which seems to divide listeners, like the Haitink/RVW set 

[Mirror Image]

Well, and the Sarge has also expressed disappointment.  It is a set which seems to divide listeners, like the Haitink/RVW set 

QFT. I'll also add that I'm quite grateful to hear such a wide variety of performances of Nielsen's music and I find that, even if I don't particularly care for a performance, I learn something about the music and myself in the process.

[71 dB]

I know and own only one cycle of Nielsen's symphonies so I don't need to be dissappointed about anything. Having only one performance has it's benefits. Cheaper and less shelf space wasted.

[Mirror Image]

I know and own only one cycle of Nielsen's symphonies so I don't need to be dissappointed about anything. Having only one performance has it's benefits. Cheaper and less shelf space wasted.

Which cycle do you own? Let me guess: Leaper's on Naxos?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Which cycle do you own? Let me guess: Leaper's on Naxos?

Now now. I haven't heard that one. In any case there is enough cheap bargain priced Nielsen out there with major conductors and major orchestras. What an embarassment of riches !

"Symphony No. 4, The Inextinguishable" - What a symphony! This is where Nielsen began structuring his music in an organic way, where each movement is played without pause and are interlocked. The finale of "The Inextinguishable" is a raucous timpani battle where the timpanists are given a significant amount of creative liberty to play as loudly as they can so they're almost drowning out the orchestra. It's a real hoot!

Hmmm I am surprised you don't particularly like Schumann's 4th Symphony then. It has a unifying theme and is the same "attaca" structure as Nielsen's 4th.

[71 dB]

Which cycle do you own? Let me guess: Leaper's on Naxos?

Good guess!  0:)

[Mirror Image]

Good guess!  0:)

Well, you're the 'Naxos guy' around here!

[71 dB]

Well, you're the 'Naxos guy' around here!

Well, it's better to be a "Naxos guy" than nobody. 

I do have 5 non-Naxos Nielsen discs:

Chamber Music 1 - Dacapo
Chamber Music 2 - Dacapo
Orchestral Music - Dacapo
Theatre Music - BIS
Choral Works - Chandos