The Nielsen Nexus

[Sergeant Rock]

How's Salonen's cycle? I keep reading positive reviews online but can't find any samples.

I like his 3 and 4. I haven't explored the rest in depth.

I'm listening to Oramo 3 now...it is magnificent. John and Brian are right. Despite the expense, I would consider that before Salonen.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

I'm listening to Oramo 3 now...it is magnificent. John and Brian are right. Despite the expense, I would consider that before Salonen.

Sarge

Like Brian, I was disenchanted with Oramo's conducting in the past, but after hearing his Nielsen, the guy gets my respect big time. I really hope he conducts more Nielsen, but this might not happen any time soon (if ever). Glad you enjoyed his Espansiva, Sarge.

[TheGSMoeller]

I like his 3 and 4. I haven't explored the rest in depth.

I'm listening to Oramo 3 now...it is magnificent. John and Brian are right. Despite the expense, I would consider that before Salonen.

Sarge

"I was afraid you would say that." -Greg's Bank Account   

[TheGSMoeller]

Yes, I'm confused about that point. I always thought it flutter-tonguing until I read Hurwitz who called it a tremolo. Looking at the definition of tremolo, it does fit. I don't know how either would be marked in the score so it would be useless for me to look. I'm hoping you can solve the riddle, Karl.

Sarge

The score I looked at notated trem, listening to the Bernstein the trumpets at this point sound very clean, almost a double or triple-tounge?

[Sergeant Rock]

The score I looked at notated trem, listening to the Bernstein the trumpets at this point sound very clean, almost a double or triple-tounge?

Ah, thank you.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

"I was afraid you would say that." -Greg's Bank Account   

[Mirror Image]

Greg, I'm not sure if you've ever shopped with Presto Classical, but they've got each volume of Oramo's Nielsen for $13, which is actually a good deal on BIS recordings:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Nielsen+Oramo

[Brian]

I like his 3 and 4. I haven't explored the rest in depth.

I'm listening to Oramo 3 now...it is magnificent. John and Brian are right. Despite the expense, I would consider that before Salonen.

Sarge

Whew! Always breathe a sigh of relief when a recommendation ends well.

[Brian]

Greg, I'm not sure if you've ever shopped with Presto Classical, but they've got each volume of Oramo's Nielsen for $13, which is actually a good deal on BIS recordings:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Nielsen+Oramo

In fact, BIS in general is on sale there. You have the Oramo Elgar First already, right? Cuz it's thebomb.com.

[Mirror Image]

In fact, BIS in general is on sale there. You have the Oramo Elgar First already, right? Cuz it's thebomb.com.

I don't have his Elgar 1st (yet), but I have his recording of the 2nd, which was quite good.

[TheGSMoeller]

Ah, thank you.

Sarge

I think it's also possible for a trumpet to play the same note using different valves as if playing a trill, but it would sound like a tremolo. I'll cheat and ask a brass player later.

[TheGSMoeller]

The score I looked at notated trem, listening to the Bernstein the trumpets at this point sound very clean, almost a double or triple-tounge?

I think it's also possible for a trumpet to play the same note using different valves as if playing a trill, but it would sound like a tremolo. I'll cheat and ask a brass player later.

Got some info from a trumpet player, and he says that it is 95% time a flutter, with the small possibility of a valve flutter.

The Bernstein to me sounds like a double/triple tongue, and of course it could be a interpretive choice made my conductor or section principal, but I guess it most cases it's a flutter.
Now that we've totally examined this to death, but I find theory to be interesting so thanks for the topic, Sarge. 

[TheGSMoeller]

Greg, I'm not sure if you've ever shopped with Presto Classical, but they've got each volume of Oramo's Nielsen for $13, which is actually a good deal on BIS recordings:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Nielsen+Oramo

In fact, BIS in general is on sale there. You have the Oramo Elgar First already, right? Cuz it's thebomb.com.

Thanks, friends.

[Karl Henning]

Got some info from a trumpet player, and he says that it is 95% time a flutter, with the small possibility of a valve flutter.

The Bernstein to me sounds like a double/triple tongue, and of course it could be a interpretive choice made my conductor or section principal, but I guess it most cases it's a flutter.
Now that we've totally examined this to death, but I find theory to be interesting so thanks for the topic, Sarge. 

Thanks for your investigative work, lad!

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks for your investigative work, lad!

You're welcome. It was fun, I used to remember more back when I played, but now just have to reach out to my sources for answers. 

[Karl Henning]

Not that it means anything beyond the listener's particular hang-ups, but it greatly surprised me to read this dismissal of the piano works on amazon.com:

I agree with previous commentators that the performances on this recording are all of a very high quality. My beef is more with Nielsen as a composer.

Symphonic audiences outside of Denmark have, by now, become at least somewhat familiar with Nielsen's idom as a composer through his symphonies and violin concerto. Nielsen's 6 symphonies, like his string quartets, are the best pieces the composer wrote, and deserve their place in the orchestral and chamber music repertoire. Less so the Violin Concerto, which seems interminably long and full of tepid air. If Nielsen had let the 1st movement stand alone, he would have written a great violin concerto. Whenever I hear it played well, I want to jump up and applaud wildly. Then I realize that the rest of the audience isn't clapping and that the conductor isn't turning and bowing, and with a clammy sensation of cold sweat breaking out I realize that there are two more movements - another 30 minutes - of music to go. And those last two movements are definitely not great music by any standard of definition.

The same can be said about Nielsen's chamber music for violin and solo piano. The 1st Violin Sonata isn't half bad and deserves a hearing now and then, though those by Saint-Saens, Faure and Schumann are far more worthy to appear in a concert hall. The pieces for violin solo likewise. It is the 2nd Violin Sonata that takes the prize. The first couple of movements are merely ho-hum, but then comes the last movement. One expects that the previous inanities will continue, but - oh lord - is one in for a surprise! The last movement is so bad that I have always had a hard time stopping myself from bursting out with loud laughter as the pianist and violinist play this travesty of composition with a straight face. The fugue is like something the 2 year-old Bach could have written.

Most of the solo piano music is equally bad (or funny if one thinks of Carl Nielsen as a Florence Foster Jenkins-style composer in these pieces). It is patently obvious that Nielsen was no pianist, and that his pianistic skills were mediocre at best. His own skills must have influenced the quality of the music. Nielsen does try to incorporate the style that is uniquely his into these works, but goes overboard, so the piano music sounds like a bad parody of his symphonies and other, better, works. Of course, if someone else were trying to make fun of Nielsen's music, then the parody would be very good instead. Add to that passages in the piano which sound obviously clunky technically speaking, and you have a synopsis of Nielsen's piano music.

This set may be a steal price-wise, but one pays the penalty if the CD's with the 2nd Violin Sonata and piano music are played. Instead of having your respect for this bad-to-decent, at times great in his best works, composer ruined by listening to how ludicrously he was able to compose in all seriousness, I would recommend that you only buy CD's with the string quartets and the wind quintet. Getting the two CD set of the quartets performed by the Danish String Quartet is highly recommended. That way you will be able to continue to sit through Nielsen's symphonies in the concert hall without snickering, which will no doubt irritate those around you more than struggling with candy wrappers and texting while the music plays.

The performers deserve five stars for their efforts, but unfortunately, Nielsen's music on this CD set has to be considered as well. His 2nd Violin Sonata and the piano works merit one star (and that's catching me in a generous mood), so the average must come out to three.

Of course, there is no musical discussion of the piano music's alleged defects, just scornful witticism.  Personally, my enjoyment of the piano music has never resulted in any impulse to snicker at any of Nielsen's other music.  No doubt, some sort of pathology on my part, a morbid sympathy with "bad-to-decent" 20^th-c. composers 

[Sergeant Rock]

Whew! Always breathe a sigh of relief when a recommendation ends well.

The first movement especially has all the things I look for. It has great detail (trumpets do not disappoint) and a sense of anticipation and excitement as the waltz climax approaches...and then, the waltz is played in an individual way that gave me a sense that the conductor knew what he wanted, and got what he wanted rather than just getting through it. Gave me goose bumps    The only negative reaction I had to the performance was the tenor in the slow movement. But everyone responds to voices differently so I don't think that should necessarily bother others.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks for your investigative work, lad!

Seconded. If there is individual choice in how to interpret Nielsen's marking, that would explain the different sounds various performances have at this point (when you can hear it, that is).

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Not that it means anything beyond the listener's particular hang-ups, but it greatly surprised me to read this dismissal of the piano works on amazon.com:

I don't think I've ever listened to the piano music. That review gives me incentive to give it go 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Hah!  What was our Davey's phrase? "Resentment listening"?