Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

Started by George, July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM

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Brian

Quote from: Alek Hidell on February 22, 2020, 01:43:31 PM
I know others have already said it, but that really is an atrocious cover - especially for Alpha, a label that quite often produces handsome cover art. It would be bad regardless, but the little figure of Lifschitz pasted in there - what is he doing, shaking his fist at the giant inescapable presence of LvB? - is what really makes it awful.
Agreed. I have very limited CD storage space (cuz I bought too many) and now try to restrict physical purchases to either rarities or a small handful of record labels which treat the physical product with great care and try to make something worth holding and keeping. Alpha is typically very much one if those labels but this box artwork is truly gross.

Also, after reading George's comments about listening to various YouTube interviews, I honestly hoped the booklet would have an essay by or interview with the pianist. Instead he just offers a dedication. Oh well.

Good thing it's on streaming!

Mandryka

Quote from: Brian on February 23, 2020, 05:18:39 AM
There's a lot of extreme slowness throughout. Friday I listened to Op 31 No 1, where his slow movement is 14'. He sustains it so beautifully that it doesn't ever feel like a stretch, but he also loses a good deal of the humor of the music's exaggerations.

I'm quite excited for the 28' Waldstein as that's one where I like a big romantic approach.

Maybe not that long in op 111/ii after all, I just saw that Peter Serkin (Graf) takes about the same for the theme.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

staxomega

Quote from: ritter on January 29, 2020, 06:49:04 AM
I think this hasn't been posted here yet:


Yes, it's new recordings (40 years later!).
Feb. 28th release date, as per Presto Classical.

Really special Op. 109 for me. Weirdly he sort of rushes, even clips some of the phrases yet it still sounds divine and transcendental. The same continues through the rest of 109. His tone is also much more to my taste here with a rich burnished tone compared to the steeliness of his earlier recording. Not a fan of either recording of his in 110 and 111 didn't hit the same highs for me as the earlier recording. Lots of humming throughout :)

Really wonderful atmosphere around the recordings too, brilliantly mic'd by DG, loads of ambient information about the hall and plenty of direct sound.

amw

#4363
Quote from: Mandryka on February 23, 2020, 02:33:11 AM
Lifschitz takes 2 minutes and 50 seconds for the opening "arietta" theme of op 111/ii. I don't know much about Beethoven but isn't that a bit of a long time?
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53
Michel Dalberto - 2:01
Yeol Eum Son - 2:06
Zhou Xiao-Mei - 2:06
Paul Badura-Skoda [Astrée/Arcana] - 2:11
Cédric Pescia - 2:15
Annie Fischer [EMI] - 2:16
Mitsuko Uchida - 2:17
András Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:18
Olga Pashchenko - 2:18
Robert Riefling - 2:18
Annie Fischer [BBC] - 2:19
Alexei Lubimov - 2:20
Penelope Crawford - 2:20
Fazıl Say [Warner] - 2:24
Alexei Volodin - 2:24
Dina Ugorskaja - 2:27
Gábor Csalog - 2:28
András Schiff [Bösendorfer] - 2:29
Paul Komen - 2:30
Kazune Shimizu - 2:30
Michaël Lévinas - 2:32
Einar Steen-Nøkleberg - 2:36
Yusuke Kikuchi - 2:36
Charles Rosen - 2:37
Bruce Hungerford - 2:42
Pi-Hsien Chen - 2:45
me - 2:45
Artur Schnabel - 2:48
Paavali Jumppanen - 2:49
Claudio Arrau [Music & Arts] - 2:50
Michael Korstick - 2:52
Grigory Sokolov - 2:55
Peter Serkin - 2:57
Takahiro Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12
Daniel-Ben Pienaar - 3:12
Christoph Eschenbach - 3:27
Anatol Ugorski - 3:38

You may judge for yourself whether 2:50 counts as a "long time" in this context.

Jo498

Not sure if this was already linked, the Igor Levit is available for listening (for some time) at the Netherlands Radio

https://www.nporadio4.nl/cds/igor-levit-beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

#4365
Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 09:08:12 PM
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53


I've always had this theory that Zoltan Kocsis was Edwin Fischer in a previous life, so I thought I'd see what happens on this recording



and lo and behold, proof that there is metempsychosis

Zoltan Kocsis 1:58

It's very good! Let me say that again, it's very good. If anyone wants the sound files of the whole DVD they can PM me.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 11:44:30 PM
I've always had this theory that Zoltan Kocsis was Edwin Fischer in a previous life, so I thought I'd see what happens on this recording



and lo and behold, proof that there is metempsychosis

Zoltan Kocsis 1:58

It's very good! Let me say that again, it's very good. If anyone wants the sound files of the whole DVD they can PM me.
Count me as interested!

Marc

Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 11:48:21 PM
Count me as interested!

Me too.

(I should clean my PM archives, but I keep forgetting it. :-[)

Brian

#4368
Quote from: hvbias on February 25, 2020, 04:41:30 PM
Really special Op. 109 for me. Weirdly he sort of rushes, even clips some of the phrases yet it still sounds divine and transcendental. The same continues through the rest of 109. His tone is also much more to my taste here with a rich burnished tone compared to the steeliness of his earlier recording. Not a fan of either recording of his in 110 and 111 didn't hit the same highs for me as the earlier recording. Lots of humming throughout :)

Really wonderful atmosphere around the recordings too, brilliantly mic'd by DG, loads of ambient information about the hall and plenty of direct sound.
Listening now. Definitely quite interesting - the speed but with warmth. Sounds live, I occasionally hear some coughing in the distance in addition to Pollini's own humming.

EDIT: To add to amw's listing above, Pollini's arietta theme is 2:14.

EDIT II: Also I am super interested in the Kocsis.

staxomega

#4369
Quote from: Brian on February 26, 2020, 11:28:13 AM
Listening now. Definitely quite interesting - the speed but with warmth. Sounds live, I occasionally hear some coughing in the distance in addition to Pollini's own humming.

EDIT: To add to amw's listing above, Pollini's arietta theme is 2:14.

EDIT II: Also I am super interested in the Kocsis.

Yeah it's live, this is why I complemented DG's engineers as there is virtually no audience noise (or maybe they paid the eye watering amount his tickets go for and decided to stay quiet!); it sounds like the mics are placed closer to the piano with the amount left hand weightiness I'm hearing. But at the same time enough reverberant information from the hall that I get a feel for the recording space that it's in. Pollini does play quite briskly and one reason 111 is not entirely to my taste is how he plays variation 4 and 5. Variation 3 is also a bit lacking in the real reckless abandonment but that is fine, Gulda or maybe Grinberg might be the only ones I've heard that truly relishes this section.

If this is unedited, and I am lead to believe it might be since there are a few extremely minor mistakes here and there, then Pollini still possess tremendous skill. I'd love to see him play this program live.

staxomega

#4370
Quote from: amw on February 25, 2020, 09:08:12 PM
Here is an ordered list of (most of the) recordings I have, since I was in the middle of splitting each one up into its variations to compare timings anyway. Favourites highlighted.

Edwin Fischer - 1:53
Michel Dalberto - 2:01
Yeol Eum Son - 2:06
Zhou Xiao-Mei - 2:06
Paul Badura-Skoda [Astrée/Arcana] - 2:11
Cédric Pescia - 2:15
Annie Fischer [EMI] - 2:16
Mitsuko Uchida - 2:17
András Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:18
Olga Pashchenko - 2:18
Robert Riefling - 2:18
Annie Fischer [BBC] - 2:19
Alexei Lubimov - 2:20
Penelope Crawford - 2:20
Fazıl Say [Warner] - 2:24
Alexei Volodin - 2:24
Dina Ugorskaja - 2:27
Gábor Csalog - 2:28
András Schiff [Bösendorfer] - 2:29
Paul Komen - 2:30
Kazune Shimizu - 2:30
Michaël Lévinas - 2:32
Einar Steen-Nøkleberg - 2:36
Yusuke Kikuchi - 2:36
Charles Rosen - 2:37
Bruce Hungerford - 2:42
Pi-Hsien Chen - 2:45
me - 2:45
Artur Schnabel - 2:48
Paavali Jumppanen - 2:49
Claudio Arrau [Music & Arts] - 2:50
Michael Korstick - 2:52
Grigory Sokolov - 2:55
Peter Serkin - 2:57
Takahiro Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12
Daniel-Ben Pienaar - 3:12
Christoph Eschenbach - 3:27
Anatol Ugorski - 3:38

You may judge for yourself whether 2:50 counts as a "long time" in this context.

Which Edwin Fischer recording is this? The one from Salzburg comes in at the time you stated, he also has a studio recording from a couple of months earlier that I've never heard (I guess vinyl only or Japan CD). I find myself in agreement with many of the bolded selections, in particular Hungerford, Schnabel and Peter Serkin. I don't know some of the others.

I thought I'd revisit Sonoda (Evica) since I've praised some of his late sonatas in the past (I really like 110 Evica), here I couldn't get over how glacial the Arietta is. I can't even imagine how Ugorski does it, but we're treated to a Bernard Michael O'Hanlon review of it so I will give it a go  :laugh:

Here is Lucchesini clocking in at 2:30 if you haven't heard it, I know this box can be hard to find. My personal favorite. https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1nq9knh9llodpc/111arietta.flac/file

amw

#4371
Just realised I forgot about this thread lol

Quote from: hvbias on February 26, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
Which Edwin Fischer recording is this?
The only one that's widely available (Salzburg 28 June 1954).

QuoteI find myself in agreement with many of the bolded selections, in particular Hungerford, Schnabel and Peter Serkin. I don't know some of the others.

I thought I'd revisit Sonoda (Evica) since I've praised some of his late sonatas in the past (I really like 110 Evica), here I couldn't get over how glacial the Arietta is. I can't even imagine how Ugorski does it, but we're treated to a Bernard Michael O'Hanlon review of it so I will give it a go  :laugh:
To be honest I very rarely listen to the Ugorski recording, but I do like the Sonoda/Evica and the Eschenbach (whose last movement overall comes in at 22:26; unlike Sonoda, he attempts to play all the variations at that extremely slow tempo). Ugorski actually succeeds at playing all of the variations at his chosen slow tempo. This is harder than it sounds because as the music increases in volume and decreases in note values your natural tendency is to speed up. (Sonoda's Arietta is 3:12; his Variation I is 2:40; his Variation II is 1:42. This is exceptional only in its extremism.)

Quote
Here is Lucchesini clocking in at 2:30 if you haven't heard it, I know this box can be hard to find. My personal favorite. https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1nq9knh9llodpc/111arietta.flac/file
I've never bothered to acquire the Lucchesini cycle despite having it fairly easily available from several sources & streaming sites—not sure why. It has certainly received enough praise but I think I always found him a bit too romanticised.

Some example timings for Op. 111/ii—theme and variations 1-5:

Schiff [Broadwood] - 2:19 / 1:57 / 1:45 / 2:01 / 5:28 / 3:59
Uchida - 2:17 / 2:21 / 1:57 / 2:03 / 5:31 / 4:25
Hungerford - 2:42 / 2:02 / 1:36 / 1:57 / 5:13 / 4:10
Rosen - 2:38 / 2:25 / 2:31 / 2:17 / 6:06 / 4:05
Peter Serkin - 2:57 / 2:24 / 1:52 / 1:43 / 5:44 / 4:22
Pashchenko - 2:19 / 1:51 / 1:48 / 2:12 / 4:53 / 3:47
Schnabel - 2:48 / 1:56 / 1:53 / 1:55 / 5:19 / 4:22
Eschenbach - 3:27 / 3:17 / 2:33 / 2:11 / 6:06 / 4:52
Ugorski - 3:39 / 3:49 / 3:34 / 2:44 / 7:50 / 5:20
Sokolov - 2:56 / 2:28 / 2:43 / 2:11 / 6:21 / 4:55
Edwin Fischer - 1:53 / 1:43 / 1:36 / 2:03 / 4:32 / 3:23
Sonoda [Evica] - 3:12 / 2:40 / 1:42 / 2:02 / 5:23 / 3:56
me - 2:45 / 2:03 / 2:10 / 2:24 [with mistakes] / 5:56 / 3:40—now that I know this I'll work on speeding up the Arietta a bit in line with the rest of the variations, because I prefer the relative evenness of tempo in the Fischer conception..... and also practicing variation 3 a lot

staxomega

#4372
Quote from: amw on March 02, 2020, 01:33:39 AM
Just realised I forgot about this thread lol
The only one that's widely available (Salzburg 28 June 1954).
To be honest I very rarely listen to the Ugorski recording, but I do like the Sonoda/Evica and the Eschenbach (whose last movement overall comes in at 22:26; unlike Sonoda, he attempts to play all the variations at that extremely slow tempo). Ugorski actually succeeds at playing all of the variations at his chosen slow tempo. This is harder than it sounds because as the music increases in volume and decreases in note values your natural tendency is to speed up. (Sonoda's Arietta is 3:12; his Variation I is 2:40; his Variation II is 1:42. This is exceptional only in its extremism.)
I've never bothered to acquire the Lucchesini cycle despite having it fairly easily available from several sources & streaming sites—not sure why. It has certainly received enough praise but I think I always found him a bit too romanticised.

I was listening to Ernst Levy, another very special Op. 111 for me and he also comes in at 3:12 in the Arietta, but the entire movement works for me (too lazy to break down the times by variation). So I will have to come back to Sonoda Evica and hear the entire thing. Ugorski might take considerably more time ;D Here is Levy in the Arietta: https://www.mediafire.com/file/u169xoxadwl8u7o/levy111.flac/file

Your post also tipped me off to an Annie Fischer recording I didn't know existed, the BBC one since it wasn't on the more ubiquitous BBC Legends label. I have that incoming and look forward to hearing it.

On Lucchesini's cycle as a whole, the way I have this pictured in my head is if Paul Badura-Skoda's Astree is perfectly classical and Arrau (EMI/60s Philips) is high romanticism, with Kempff (any of them) as a perfect balance between classical and romantic the Lucchesini cycle is slightly past Kempff in being a bit more romantic. It has replaced Annie Fischer's Hungaroton as now being my overall favorite.

George

I am still listening through the Lipschitz set for the first time. I am finding a bit more ups and downs in the set than I expected (or wanted.) But boy when he is on, he is as good as anyone, tonight I am listening to the disc that has Op. 78, 79, 81a, 90 and 101. His Op. 78 is the best I have heard.
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Todd






The Honma I knew was coming.  The Nuber is new to me.  Anyone heard it?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd




Slow.  Lotsa slow stuff in this set.  One can glean that from some of the timings, not least the 54'+ Hammerklavier, with its 25'+ Adagio.  How one feels about slow Beethoven may inform the decision to buy or listen to this set.  Not me, of course, I preordered the first day the set was avaialble and waited anxiously for it to arrive.  Out of the gate, the first two Op 2 sonatas sounded spontaneous, at least in places - aided by the live recording - but they also sounded a bit heavy for the material and a bit off-kilter, with extra-slow slow movements.  With Op 2/3, Lifschitz finds his groove, or rather my taste aligns with his approach, and he demonstrates that he can do the virtuosity thing.  This sonata starts a fairly long chain of high-grade, if slightly idiosyncratic takes on the sonatas.  Op 7 is really very fine, with perfectly judged opening and slow movements, all three Op 10 sonatas sound just swell, as does the weighty Op 13, the almost but not quite overdone Op 14 sonatas, and the extremely fine Op 22.  Here, somewhat against expectations, Lifschitz's slow approach to the slow movement really pays dividends, and the whole sonata is superb.  Everything cruises along nicely until Op 31/1.  The strange thing is that I thought all of Op 31 would work splendidly. Lifschitz adds spontaneity to an obviously well thought approach, and I started to think of him as basically a spontaneous neo-Kuerti.  Except for 31/1.  I'm not  a huge fan of Kuerti's cycle overall, but he delivers one of the great 31/1s, but Lifschitz whiffs.  The opening movement is a bit broad, but the 14'+ slow movement is just too much.  And the finale also drags.  31/2 is also too slow, but Lifschitz's tendency to play dynamic extremes well helps here, though the slow movement is again too slow.  31/3 is good, with more energy, and the Op 49 sonatas are nice enough.  The 50s are mixed.  The tendency toward slowness makes the Waldstein drag a bit in places, and the stark dynamic contrasts are not nuanced enough.  This latter tendency also informs Op 54, and Op 57 at times comes close to banging, though in person I'm sure it would work.  Things then sort of cruise along at a good or very good level until Op 101, which sounds too heavy, kludgy, and almost sloppy in the fugal music, something which reappears in the finale movement of Op 106, which itself has a saggy, way too slow slow movement.  The day I listened to the last three sonatas I also happened to revisit Fazil Say's recent set, and listening to both on the same day offers a fairly stark contrast.  Both tend toward individuality almost to a fault, but there's something more right about what Say does.  It just jells more, and the playing is more refined.  To be sure, there are good things in the last three works from Lifschitz, but they're not as elevated as I like, and the half-hour plus Op 111 is again too slow for me.  So, as with his set of Violin Sonatas with Daishin Kashimoto, a mixed bag, with some really good stuff in the first half of the cycle.

Sound for the live recordings is excellent, but not the best avaialble.

Third tier.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

JBS

Quote from: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:17:31 AM





The Honma I knew was coming.  The Nuber is new to me.  Anyone heard it?

Not only have I not heard it, I've never (to the best of my knowledge) heard of him. Who is he?

That FFG CD you posted in the Purchases thread...is that a new one-off or an old one?

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Todd

Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 AMWho is he?


Michael Nuber.  Now you and I know exactly the same amount of information about the pianist.


Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 AMThat FFG CD you posted in the Purchases thread...is that a new one-off or an old one?


Older, when he recorded for Naïve.  It's his second Op 106 recording.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

JBS

Quote from: Todd on April 12, 2020, 07:52:36 AM

Michael Nuber.  Now you and I know exactly the same amount of information about the pianist.
.

Sign of a true completist is when you get a cycle from a pianist not even Google knows.

Google's top pick for the name is this guy
https://www.hudl.com/profile/10760632/Michael-Nuber

No, wait, the pianist shows up on the second page of results

https://www.schwaebisch-gmuend.de/veranstaltung/klavierabend-michael-nuber-9265.html

Reading that, I predict more Liszt in your future.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Todd

Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2020, 08:12:16 AM
Sign of a true completist is when you get a cycle from a pianist not even Google knows.


I searched around a bit last night and could not find the cycle available to purchase anywhere.  The JAW Records website is not functional yet (if it ever will be).  The YouTube selection I listened to was, shall we say, uninspiring.  But I still want the cycle.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya