Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

Holy cow, you really lined up alllll these threads to finish out and post tiers in every single one on Beethoven's probable birthday? Talk about a master plan.

The only composer I can imagine taking the time to both listen to and write about so much.

On the Eroica, don't forget the 2020 corkers from Ades and Savall.  When the Ades is complete, unless he flubs the last three symphonies, it will be the go-to small ensemble set.

For the piano sonatas, I hope that many pianists endeavor to complete new cycles for 2027.  I need me some more cycles.

[George]

The most objective ratings system known to humanity - refreshed!


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi

Did you do a full writeup of Fazil Say's set? I just ran a few searches and can't find it.

[Todd]

Did you do a full writeup of Fazil Say's set? I just ran a few searches and can't find it.

No.  I didn't do any this year until Sohn, Scherbakov, and Barenboim.

[George]

No.  I didn't do any this year until Sohn, Scherbakov, and Barenboim.

OK

[SonicMan46]

The most objective ratings system known to humanity - refreshed!


Top Tier – The Holy Tetrarchy
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)

[Rudolf Serkin; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Top Tier – The Rest of the Top Ten (sort of in order)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Eric Heidsieck
Russell Sherman
Andrea Lucchesini
Emil Gilels
Daniel-Ben Pienaar

[Sviatoslav Richter; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Artur Schnabel
Fazil Say
Francois Frederic Guy
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Minsoo Sohn
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Yu Kosuge
Yusuke Kikuchi.......................................

Thanks Todd for your 'refreshed' list of Beethoven's Sonata Cycles in the 250th year of his birth - about six months ago I acquired the recently released Paul Badura-Skoda box shown below released by Arcana (originally on Astree-Audivis), i.e. the 1978-1989 recordings on seven different original fortepianos (second pic from the 68-page booklet) - for those interested in performances of these works on period instruments (originals and/or reproductions - I usually prefer the latter) and have yet to purchase, some interesting contrasting reviews of Paul B-S's recordings - the first is a raving review of the box shown from MusicWeb (I would suspect that the sound was improved) vs. a handful of Fanfare reviews from the past when the CDs were first released; the latter include a number of rather negative comments - I've only listened to this box once when bought, so before 2020 ends, will take another run through.  Dave

 

[MickeyBoy]

Any comments on the Pristine Classical remasterings of Kempff mono?

[Madiel]

I've tried Lucchesini and Pienaar because people around here keep raving.

They both did absolutely nothing for me. Lucchesini I can't remember the details, it was a while ago. Pienaar... just fiddles with everything.

And then I found a bunch of reviews of Pienaar that perfectly aligned with my own reaction. Including a review that said it was likely to be a love it or hate it set and then declared the reviewer generally fell into the latter category.

So there's nothing 'objective' about this list.

[Jo498]

Which ones have you heard that you liked?

(I got Lucchesini years ago long before I knew of this forum because people liked it elsewhere on the internet. But I don't remember if I found it special, I should probably relisten. I tend to stick with old favs, namely Gulda for the whole (despite being sometimes too fast and straight), + assorted Gilels, Richter, Pollini, Serkin, Schnabel). Some of my favorites never did complete cycles, namely Gelber and Kocsis.

[Brian]

So there's nothing 'objective' about this list.

Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

(I personally love Lucchesini but agree with you on DBP and additionally don't like the recorded sound on that set, which iirc DBP engineered himself. But this gets at something which the Ultimate Objective list doesn't really capture, which is eccentricity/idiosyncrasy. Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)

[Madiel]

Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

(I personally love Lucchesini but agree with you on DBP and additionally don't like the recorded sound on that set, which iirc DBP engineered himself. But this gets at something which the Ultimate Objective list doesn't really capture, which is eccentricity/idiosyncrasy. Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.)

With the poster in question I wouldn't know what was hyperbole and what was his general tendency to act as if he's the smartest person in the room.

As for eccentricity, I have a working theory that after you listen to 150 performances of the same music you start developing a focus on who's doing it differently rather than asking whether the performer is doing what the composer requested and conveying the composer's intentions.

[Madiel]

Which ones have you heard that you liked?

(I got Lucchesini years ago long before I knew of this forum because people liked it elsewhere on the internet. But I don't remember if I found it special, I should probably relisten. I tend to stick with old favs, namely Gulda for the whole (despite being sometimes too fast and straight), + assorted Gilels, Richter, Pollini, Serkin, Schnabel). Some of my favorites never did complete cycles, namely Gelber and Kocsis.

The 2 full cycles I own are Kovacevich and Goode. I generally like both of them a lot (Goode I only purchased last year), though they do both have occasional missteps in my view as well. Kovacevich has amazing intensity, which works very well for some Beethoven. Goode impressed me for his vocal qualities, bringing out the different 'voices' in the music very clearly and making it sound like an opera scene - generally better in the early to middle works.

Beyond that I have, or have heard, some other bits and pieces but not sure I want to make general comments about the pianists off the top of my head.

[Todd]

Pretty sure "The most objective ratings system known to humanity" is comic hyperbole.

I would have thought that obvious.  Maybe one has to be American to get it.

Perhaps we could convince Todd to do a graph with X and Y axes, where X goes from "most normal" on the left to "most personal/weird" on the right, and Y goes from "worst" at bottom to "best" at top. Then the bottom left would be boring cycles, bottom right would be maniacs, top left would be good "objective" performances, and top right would be interesting eccentrics or visionaries.

An interesting idea.  I'd have to make sure to scale it properly to accommodate Gould.

[Jo498]

As for eccentricity, I have a working theory that after you listen to 150 performances of the same music you start developing a focus on who's doing it differently rather than asking whether the performer is doing what the composer requested and conveying the composer's intentions.

I had a similar suspicion years ago with a few posters in rec.classical.recordings. And I am pretty sure there are such listeners. I enjoy some fairly odd performances myself (but I am not quite sure if it is correlated with how well I know the music).

But Todd's Beethoven favorites are rarely excentric at all (neither here nor in the more recent smaller chamber music etc. surveys). He dislikes Gould and of his top favorites all, except maybe Annie Fischer that appeared late/posthumeously and was not so well distributed, are standard recommendations since the days of LP. And Fischer is not wilful or different for the sake of being different either.
I don't know Pienaar and Sherman but of the first "tiers" only Heidsieck strikes me as somewhat mannered occasionally.

[Madiel]

I had a similar suspicion years ago with a few posters in rec.classical.recordings. And I am pretty sure there are such listeners. I enjoy some fairly odd performances myself (but I am not quite sure if it is correlated with how well I know the music).

But Todd's Beethoven favorites are rarely excentric at all (neither here nor in the more recent smaller chamber music etc. surveys). He dislikes Gould and of his top favorites all, except maybe Annie Fischer that appeared late/posthumeously and was not so well distributed, are standard recommendations since the days of LP. And Fischer is not wilful or different for the sake of being different either.
I don't know Pienaar and Sherman but of the first "tiers" only Heidsieck strikes me as somewhat mannered occasionally.

Duly noted. Nevertheless Emperor Todd ought to be deposed.

[Karl Henning]

The two complete cycles I have are Kempff stereo and Pollini.  I enjoy them both thoroughly. I had the Kempff mono, and had no quarrel with it at all, but I gave it to a friend who had none. I do not believe that I need a third cycle.

[Holden]

I am also not a fan of eccentricity and would agree that Ben Pienaar definitely falls into that category. There are enough different ways to play the LvB sonatas without having to resort to excessively playing around with the phrasing.

When I listen to the cycles I've got (complete and near as) they are all different. Annie Fischer sounds nothing like Kempff. Gilels is totally different to Richter despite them both having the same teacher. The refreshing approach when I heard Hungerford the first time took my breath away yet his is nothing like the set that I imprinted on - Barenboim EMI. Finally, we have the man who started it all - Schnabel. His approach of swift first movements is reminiscent of Gulda but his slow movements, unlike Gulda's, are often sublime. Guld just tries to get the out of the way as quickly as possible.

One last word about eccentricity - Glenn Gould. In the LvB sonatas he played around with tempos, he played around with dynamics but he invariably got the phrasing correct. The first movement of the Appassionata is a case in point where he plays it ridiculously slowly. Despite this, it works for me as the phrasing and dynamics are spot on. If this recording had been my first exposure to Op 57 it would have been totally acceptable to me. I can't say the same for any of the DBP sonatas.

[Jo498]

Duly noted. Nevertheless Emperor Todd ought to be deposed.

I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons.
And I do find the tendency towards extreme or eccentricity because of overfamiliarity you noted quite interesting (and occasionally noted it myself) but it does not seem all that strong with Todd's reviews.
If I had to name a person from the forum who seems to be somewhat taken to eccentric keyboard interpretations, it would be Mandryka/Wolkenstein (no offense).

[amw]

I am also not a fan of eccentricity and would agree that Ben Pienaar definitely falls into that category. There are enough different ways to play the LvB sonatas without having to resort to excessively playing around with the phrasing.

I actually don't find DBP to be strangely or unusually phrased—rather he seems to play most of the time with the phrasing of someone who's not quite technically capable of playing the Beethoven sonatas but is still making an effort. So a lot of the breathing pauses are positioned in exactly the places you have to reposition your hands quickly. I imagine it's the kind of recording that is grating to pianophiles, but it at least makes sense and is not arbitrary.

(I also don't think this reflects on his technical abilities, which are considerable; it's just that every time I hear him play a Beethoven sonata the places he hesitates or slows down tend to be the parts at which a less experienced piano student would do the same. I'm not sure if he just started out playing them with the hesitations like that as a student and liked the effect enough to continue with it as a professional, or if it's just a coincidence.)

[Mandryka]

I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons.
And I do find the tendency towards extreme or eccentricity because of overfamiliarity you noted quite interesting (and occasionally noted it myself) but it does not seem all that strong with Todd's reviews.
If I had to name a person from the forum who seems to be somewhat taken to eccentric keyboard interpretations, it would be Mandryka/Wolkenstein (no offense).

I think there are two places you can come from.

You could start with the score and traditional established ways of making sense of it, and then when you hear a recording you try to assess how well it fits into that. On this model it's probably inevitable  to end up with central and eccentric performances, though there may be more than one centre (think the "piano schools" way of thinking)

Or you could start with a performance on record or in concert and a explore the effects of the the performer's decision to play it like that. On this model, the idea of central/eccentric is less important. What matters is to understand more deeply the things which, otherwise, are only labelled "eccentric"  - labelled eccentric and dismissed.

[Madiel]

I am not taking his reviews seriously, except to some extent for Beethoven piano sonatas where he has some experience. But one should blame or ignore people for the proper reasons.

The reasons why he is on my ignore list have been publicly stated. On parts of this forum he is quite deliberately a troll.