Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Brian]

Oh I think she can be very sensitive

Agreed - I have heard her Ravel!  0:)

[Mandryka]

Jet lag flying to Tokyo....month of February, so possibly the flu (my wife and son have it and I just got over it)....etc.  Who knows?

Too charitable. There are other recordings which are similarly disappointing I think. The Mozart PC 20 I would say. And some Chopin too. Nocturnes.

[Bogey]

Too charitable. There are other recordings which are similarly disappointing I think. The Mozart PC 20 I would say. And some Chopin too. Nocturnes.

Chicken pox?

[ccar]

http://www.youtube.com/v/ffesxg5K5NQ

                              She's fast.

           
           Some other, faster , Waldsteins ...


http://www.youtube.com/v/f3nnYGPZlp0 http://www.youtube.com/v/SEn7Asy5w74
http://www.youtube.com/v/Fuz4xLVWa0A http://www.youtube.com/v/X0WhOhUbZLI&playnext=1&list=PLC45C5884240FB976

[Holden]

I have all four of those Waldstein's and would like to comment.

The Schnabel is the poorest in my opinion. He struggles in places to get the necessary articulation

Next on the ladder for me is the Gulda - an exciting first movement but the other two movements don't get the necessary time to 'breathe'.

The Cziffra is the reverse. The first movement, like the Argerich, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It's fast but it's also like it's jogging on the spot.

The Tomsic (thanks you for including this) is one of my all time favourites of this work. Onward imeptus with brilliant articulation in Movement I, a well considered Introduzione and a rondo that lives up to it's name.

You might consider this as well. It was  my introduction to this work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfqNXgsOP50

However, this is the one to listen to (and I know George will agree).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8R0dPWVod8

[George]

However, this is the one to listen to (and I know George will agree).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8R0dPWVod8

Indeed I will.

I will add a plug for the Casimir live recording by Josef Hofmann.

[Mandryka]

Quote from: Mandryka on Today at 11:04:59 AM
Admittedly this is a hard movement to make interesting

Quote from: Brian on Today at 12:44:27 PM

I said that because it's  so repetitious. One of the reasons I like Ernst Levy in this is that he finds lots of ways to ring the changes. Colours, phrasing, articulation.

BTW I think fortepianos can help with the first movement -- the dry percussive tone seems to suit the music. I like Komen most, I think. The piano sounds so bang bang thud thud it's wonderful. This music sounds good to me when you take it far away from the slickness of a Steinway 88.

I have all four of those Waldstein's and would like to comment.

The Schnabel is the poorest in my opinion. He struggles in places to get the necessary articulation

Can you say a bit more? You mean in the first movement?

[Holden]

Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier

[Mandryka]

Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier

I quite like what he does with it. Very much so. I expect he would have rerecorded more of those sonatas if he could have.

[Clever Hans]

Schnabel's left hand and right hands just don't match up in a number of places in I. The left hand is in time but the right hand is struggling to keep up. There are a number of instances of sloppy RH passage work. This is also observable in his recording of the Hammerklavier

To me, it is much more important that a player convey the character of a piece than have perfect articulation, especially in the hectic allegro of the Waldstein (Although not everyone interprets it that way, e.g. Gilels). Not to mention, as Mandryka points out, Schnabel didn't have the luxury of modern retakes and editing.

Regardless, he gets as much possible out of the Introduzione with the most imaginative rubato and especially the transition to the Rondo. 

The Hammerklavier I is another good example, where so many players don't even bother playing it allegro, let alone honoring the challenge of Beethoven's metronome marking.
Schnabel's interpretation is faultless, even if his technique lags behind.   

There is also the issue that Schnabel is sometimes criticized for "rushing," when he is swept up in an allegro.

[Scarpia]

Schnabel's interpretation is faultless, even if his technique lags behind.

My interpretation of the piece is superior to Schnabel's, although I can't even play the piano.   0:)

[Clever Hans]

My interpretation of the piece is superior to Schnabel's, although I can't even play the piano.   0:)

I opened myself up to that sort of jibe 

In any case, older recordings are often important and enjoyable for interpretive choices rather than a standard of overall excellence.

[Mandryka]

Not to mention, as Mandryka points out, Schnabel didn't have the luxury of modern retakes and editing.
 

Actually it's not  that. There American Federation of Musicians asked all it's members to stop making recordings in August 1942. The dispute was about royalties I think. American Victor's stidios were silent  from July 31, 1942 through November 11, 1944.

Schnabel rerecorded OP 109 and Op 111 in June 1942 -- before the AFM ban.

[Clever Hans]

Actually it's not  that. There American Federation of Musicians asked all it's members to stop making recordings in August 1942. The dispute was about royalties I think. American Victor's stidios were silent  from July 31, 1942 through November 11, 1944.

Schnabel rerecorded OP 110 and Op 111 in June 1942 -- before the AFM ban.

Ah, I see what you meant now.
I was speaking only of the 1932 sessions. In any event, what I meant was that the producers couldn't simply "punch-in" and smooth over a perfect retake of a particular section, like they do nowadays with Logic Studio, etc. The recording pressure must have been much greater back then, and Schnabel apparently had problems with that. Not everything is ideal with human beings, and Beethoven himself did not like performing his own compositions in public, having salon audiences sit in separate rooms, preferring to improvise and conduct with his wild gesticulations.

Schnabel recreates the exuberance, tempi, and spontaneous feeling of the sonatas like no one else, and the concertos almost like no one else (Fleisher, Serkin, Solomon, Gilels).
That Schnabel is equally successful in Schubert, who idolized Beethoven, is further evidence to me that Schnabel grokked Beethoven. For modern perfection we have Gulda, Gilels, Pollini, or Solomon and Serkin.

I like this quote about Schnabel:

"The 'fluffs' and the rhythmic telescopings that occasionally make us raise our eyebrows are actually almost always the results of attempts at the impossible, attempts to push an idea to the very limits of its logic and even a bit beyond, rather than results of an imperfect control of mind or fingers."
   

[George]

I like this quote about Schnabel:

"The 'fluffs' and the rhythmic telescopings that occasionally make us raise our eyebrows are actually almost always the results of attempts at the impossible, attempts to push an idea to the very limits of its logic and even a bit beyond, rather than results of an imperfect control of mind or fingers."
   

Excellent quote. 

[Verena]

Schnabel recreates the exuberance, tempi, and spontaneous feeling of the sonatas like no one else, and the concertos almost like no one else (Fleisher, Serkin, Solomon, Gilels).
That Schnabel is equally successful in Schubert, who idolized Beethoven, is further evidence to me that Schnabel grokked Beethoven.

   

Very well-said. Completely agree with the first part - for me Schnabel is THE Beethoven player. I find most of his Schubert a lot less impressive somehow - although I am a Schnabel fan quite generally (excepting his Schubert).

[Mandryka]

Very well-said. Completely agree with the first part - for me Schnabel is THE Beethoven player. I find most of his Schubert a lot less impressive somehow - although I am a Schnabel fan quite generally (excepting his Schubert).

I like some of the Beethoven, but not all. I don't like to focus on the negative but the earlier sonatas are sometimes just too grave for me (in the Largo to 10/3 for example. ) And some of the recordings seem very good, but maybe not really memorable and special. Sometimes (rarely) I think there are some bold but completely failed experiments -- (the first movement of the Hammerklavbier for example)

I find the Schubert more consistently satisfying, though I don't care at all for his Impromptus, which seem rather nervous.

Is there anyone interested in exploring Schnabel's recordings a bit more closely using this forum? You know the sort of thing: choosing a piece (Schubert or Beethoven or Bach or Mozart, concerto, chamber solo: -- I don't mind)  to listen to and posting reactions, whatever they may be.

[Holden]

Schnabel has been been put up on a pedestal as pianistic God as regards the LvB sonatas. He was the first to record the whole cycle (beating out Lamond) and a lot of hyperbole has been exuded from that point (regarding his stature)  from whence he gained his place on this pedestal.

Yes, he plays Beethoven very well but as the greatest interpreter of all time - I don't think so. His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. Yes, his musical intelligence comes to the fore but he seems so frequently lost in trying to just play the notes that the musicality just isn't there. His Hammerklavier is a good example. The Adagio is just superb but it follows a very ordinary Scherzo which was preceded by a first movement in which all Schnabel could do was just play as fast as possible and hope that the headlong rush would satisfy as a great performance. When you hear Pollini, Solomon and Richter play it you realise how inept this was.

Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.

Now his Schubert is a different story. Just sublime in so many areas.

[George]

Is there anyone interested in exploring Schnabel's recordings a bit more closely using this forum? You know the sort of thing: choosing a piece (Schubert or Beethoven or Bach or Mozart, concerto, chamber solo: -- I don't mind)  to listen to and posting reactions, whatever they may be.

Answered here, in the Schnabel thread.

[Verena]

Schnabel has been been put up on a pedestal as pianistic God as regards the LvB sonatas. He was the first to record the whole cycle (beating out Lamond) and a lot of hyperbole has been exuded from that point (regarding his stature)  from whence he gained his place on this pedestal.

Yes, he plays Beethoven very well but as the greatest interpreter of all time - I don't think so. His performances in the 'name' sonatas leaves a lot to be desired and much of it is lack of technical ability. Yes, his musical intelligence comes to the fore but he seems so frequently lost in trying to just play the notes that the musicality just isn't there. His Hammerklavier is a good example. The Adagio is just superb but it follows a very ordinary Scherzo which was preceded by a first movement in which all Schnabel could do was just play as fast as possible and hope that the headlong rush would satisfy as a great performance. When you hear Pollini, Solomon and Richter play it you realise how inept this was.

Where I love Schnabel is in the earlier sonatas. He still has what could be considered a very fresh approach after all these years.

Now his Schubert is a different story. Just sublime in so many areas.

Yes, his technical command is often less than satisfying. And in those sonatas where this is all too evident, I tend to prefer other pianists.
With Schnabel I feel  that he has almost always something to say (a lot in fact), often more than most other pianists I know. But in Schubert, this is not enough for me. I think his Schubert speaks, but it does not sing (to my ears).