Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

Pat B · January 03, 2018, 10:43:51 PM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 02, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Why listed as complete? She skipped two sonatas because they were published against Beethoven's wishes.

I looked into this a few years ago. As far as I could tell, the "against Beethoven's wishes" idea is backed by no evidence besides the delay from writing to publication. Quite a leap of logic.

Pat B · January 03, 2018, 10:45:09 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on January 03, 2018, 03:26:38 AM
I seem to remember reading that he actually re-recorded a few sonatas for the box because he wasn't happy with what he had done for the single releases. Off the top of my head I think it was op.2 he did that for.

op. 32.

EDIT: I meant #32, op. 111.

Pat B · January 03, 2018, 10:45:24 PM

Quote from: Josquin13 on January 03, 2018, 07:53:25 PM
Unfortunately, many of the finest Beethoven pianists I've heard in my life never recorded or finished a complete set of all 32 Piano Sonatas: Such as Rudolf Serkin, Sviatoslav Richter, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Emil Gilels, Solomon, Miecyslaw Horszowski, Edwin Fischer, Youra Guller, Zoltan Kocsis, Bruno-Leonardo Gelber, Clara Haskil, Penelope Crawford, and Glenn Gould (who could be either brilliant or off the mark in Beethoven, depending on the sonata--in my view). But I am very grateful for what Beethoven I have from these remarkable pianists.

Nice list! In a similar vein for me is Ivan Moravec.

Of course there were a bunch of different reasons for those artists' incompleteness, some more unfortunate than others. Brian did a nice interview with Crawford (link) where she shares her thoughts on (among many other things) completeness, basically an issue of priority.

prémont · January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM

Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
op. 32.

Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".

Madiel · January 04, 2018, 02:15:02 AM

Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:43:51 PM
I looked into this a few years ago. As far as I could tell, the "against Beethoven's wishes" idea is backed by no evidence besides the delay from writing to publication. Quite a leap of logic.

Well, not quite, it's part of a string of opuses that were all older pieces published later on, and as I understand it there's evidence that this was at the instigation of Beethoven's brother who at this point in time was taking over the business side of things. So perhaps not against his express wishes, but not really his own idea.

I suspect it's also backed up by a feeling that he wouldn't have re-used material from a work if he was intending to publish the earlier work.

Marc · January 04, 2018, 02:38:25 AM

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".

Is that the song with the lyrics "Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt"?

Anyway, it's not in my Kovacevich box.
I want me money back.

prémont · January 04, 2018, 03:16:19 AM

Quote from: Marc on January 04, 2018, 02:38:25 AM
Is that the song with the lyrics "Ich hoffe dass er nicht zu rasch spielt"?

Anyway, it's not in my Kovacevich box.
I want me money back.

Nor in mine - what a shame. And according to the post I quoted, Kovacevich even recorded it twice.

Todd · January 04, 2018, 05:16:48 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 08:02:32 PMAnyone have any information on Aquieles delle Vigne's cycle on WideClassique?

I think he's only finished one volume so far, so I haven't paid much attention yet. He has to get to more than halfway done before I will perk up.

Todd · January 04, 2018, 05:57:24 AM

After reading the scant notes included in the text file provided with the MP3 files I bought, it turns out Sebastian Forster is Argentinian, giving that country the most cycles from South America. There have been more cycles recorded by German pianists than pianists from any other country. I updated the tables in the prior post.

I extracted a quick subset of women pianists who have completed the cycle, and added ongoing ones. As of today, sixteen women that I know of have completed the cycle, and two more have one underway - Angela Hewitt and Letizia Michielon. No women from either the US or Germany and Austria have recorded a complete cycle, nor has a woman from France, the UK, or most other European countries. Curious.

Country	Pianist	Complete	Copy
Canada	Angela Hewitt	N	Y
Denmark	Anne Oland	Y	Y
Hungary	Annie Fischer (Hungarton)	Y	Y
Russia	Daniela Varinska	Y	N
Korea	HJ Lim	Y	Y
Turkey	Idil Biret	Y	Y
Japan	Ikuyo Nakamichi	Y	Y
Russia	Irina Mejoueva	Y	Y
Italy	Letizia Michielon	N	N
Japan	Mari Kodama	Y	Y
Russia	Maria Grinburg	Y	Y
Switzerland	Melodie Zhao	Y	Y
Greece	Rita Bouboulidi	Y	Y
Japan	Shoko Sugitani	Y	N
Russia	Tatiana Nikolayeva	Y	Y
Japan	Yaeko Yamane	Y	Y
Korea	Younwha Lee	Y	Y
Japan	Yu Kosuge	Y	Y

Country		Count
Japan		5
Russia		4
Korea		2
Turkey		1
Denmark		1
Greece		1
Switzerland		1
Hungary		1
Canada		1
Italy		1

mc ukrneal · January 04, 2018, 06:14:21 AM

Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 05:57:24 AM
After reading the scant notes included in the text file provided with the MP3 files I bought, it turns out Sebastian Forster is Argentinian, giving that country the most cycles from South America. There have been more cycles recorded by German pianists than pianists from any other country. I updated the tables in the prior post.

I extracted a quick subset of women pianists who have completed the cycle, and added ongoing ones. As of today, sixteen women that I know of have completed the cycle, and two more have one underway - Angela Hewitt and Letizia Michielon. No women from either the US or Germany and Austria have recorded a complete cycle, nor has a woman from France, the UK, or most other European countries. Curious.

Country
Pianist
Complete Copy
Canada
Angela Hewitt

N

Y
Denmark
Anne Oland

Y

Y
Hungary
Annie Fischer (Hungarton)

Y

Y
Russia
Daniela Varinska

Y

N
Korea
HJ Lim

Y

Y
Turkey
Idil Biret

Y

Y
Japan
Ikuyo Nakamichi

Y

Y
Russia
Irina Mejoueva

Y

Y
Italy
Letizia Michielon

N

N
Japan
Mari Kodama

Y

Y
Russia
Maria Grinburg

Y

Y
Switzerland
Melodie Zhao

Y

Y
Greece
Rita Bouboulidi

Y

Y
Japan
Shoko Sugitani

Y

N
Russia
Tatiana Nikolayeva

Y

Y
Japan
Yaeko Yamane

Y

Y
Korea
Younwha Lee

Y

Y
Japan
Yu Kosuge

Y

Y

Country
Count
Japan 5
Russia 4
Korea 2
Turkey 1
Denmark 1
Greece 1
Switzerland 1
Hungary 1
Canada 1
Italy 1

Interesting. I'm trying to even think of a top American born female pianist, and none comes to mind...

Turner · January 04, 2018, 06:18:43 AM

It is currently the declared cultural policy in China to reduce Western influences, also backed by various regulations such as the allowed number of translated children´s books etc., but we might see some Chinese/quasi-Chinese cycle(s) in the future. I read that there are now 40 mio children playing the piano there. A cycle by Lang Lang (but would he have the stamina?) would perhaps be more of a curiosity, though. When performing Western classical music, the Chinese have sometimes had a tendency to sweeten it into some Chinese folksyness, I think ...

Todd · January 04, 2018, 06:25:53 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 04, 2018, 06:14:21 AM
Interesting. I'm trying to even think of a top American born female pianist, and none comes to mind...

Claire Huangci is an outstanding pianist, but she's not famous yet. (Hopefully she gets there.) Other living pianists of note, depending on outlook, include Ursula Oppens, Simone Dinnerstein, Anne-Marie McDermott, and Orli Shaham. Ruth Laredo was quite good and reasonably famous. But there should definitely be more and they don't seem to achieve the same type of fame as some male pianists.

aukhawk · January 04, 2018, 06:36:04 AM

Claire Huangci's Scarlatti set is top drawer, IMHO.

Pat B · January 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 04, 2018, 02:08:09 AM
Beethoven op. 32 is a song with piano accompaniment "An die Hoffnung".

I misspelled "op. 111."

Todd · January 04, 2018, 09:14:01 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2018, 08:02:32 PM
And I have to update my Beethoven Sonata survey, finally.

What's your total count? Forster and Costa appear to be missing, though I spotted Tamami Honma's forthcoming cycle, so that's a seventeenth complete cycle from a woman, nineteenth all-in. She boosts Japan's lead, though given that she has been in the US for a while, I guess she could alternatively be counted as an American.

Pat B · January 04, 2018, 09:30:20 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on January 04, 2018, 02:15:02 AM
Well, not quite, it's part of a string of opuses that were all older pieces published later on, and as I understand it there's evidence that this was at the instigation of Beethoven's brother who at this point in time was taking over the business side of things. So perhaps not against his express wishes, but not really his own idea.

I suspect it's also backed up by a feeling that he wouldn't have re-used material from a work if he was intending to publish the earlier work.

Yes to your first paragraph. But there is a vast gulf between "his brother recommended it" and "he opposed it."

Your second paragraph, maybe, but Beethoven did occasionally re-use melodies elsewhere, and the question is whether he supported publication in 1805, not whether he intended publication in 1800.

The performer's specific claims were "published against the composer's wish" which is speculation and "well before the Sonata Op.2 No.1 in F minor" which is flat-out false whether she meant composed or published. Could she have confused op. 49 with WoO 47?

I just hope her claim does not end up being repeated and eventually accepted as historical fact. I'd have expected you to be on board with this.

Josquin13 · January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM

Quote from: Pat B on January 03, 2018, 10:45:24 PM
Nice list! In a similar vein for me is Ivan Moravec.

Of course there were a bunch of different reasons for those artists' incompleteness, some more unfortunate than others. Brian did a nice interview with Crawford (link) where she shares her thoughts on (among many other things) completeness, basically an issue of priority.

Pat B.--Thanks for the link to the Penelope Crawford interview. I found her thoughts interesting. As for her playing, I especially like the way she doesn't overly pound on the keys when playing Beethoven, or over generalize the emotional content the music. Clearly Beethoven cared about his piano touch; all those broken pianos only came when he could no longer hear well, and was forced to pound on the keys in order to hear the notes. It helps that Crawford spent many years playing the harpsichord, as her beautiful sounding 1835 Graf piano never sounds unwieldy or overly resonant. Pianists interested in playing Beethoven should hear her recordings; especially Evgeny Kissin, who is one of the worst culprits I've heard for overly pounding on the keys in Beethoven. Kissin should also read the interview with Crawford too, and reconsider how he approaches Beethoven on a modern grand. Or, better yet, he should try to play Beethoven's music on an antique piano himself, in order to better understand what Crawford has learned about the scores in relation to the pianos of Beethoven's day. (Yes, I was frustrated by Kissin's recent DG release, & wish I hadn't bought it.)

The other pianist that approaches Beethoven's late piano sonatas with a more Baroque-like touch and sensibility is Igor Levit (on a modern piano), who I also like. I suspect we'll get all 32 from Levit at some point.

As for other fine American born female pianists--apart from Crawford & those already mentioned--the Connoisseur Society label was supportive of a number of the fine American female pianists, but sadly the label has gone out of business. I most enjoyed Elizabeth Rich's excellent survey of Mozart Piano Sonatas on Connoisseur (and her Haydn & Brahms too); along with Cynthia Raim's Schumann & Brahms, and Zaidee Parkinson's Debussy Preludes.

I've also enjoyed the piano playing of American born pianists Barbara Nissman, Constance Keene, Rosalyn Tureck, Hephzibah Menuhin (in chamber music), and Lydia Artymiw over the years. (And historically, there was Amy Fay, who studied with Liszt.)

I'm a fan of Ivan Moravec too. But I think of him more for his wonderful Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Janacek, Debussy, Haydn and Mozart. I'll have to dig out his Beethoven tonight and give it a listen.

mc ukrneal · January 04, 2018, 10:30:49 AM

Quote from: Josquin13 on January 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
As for other fine American born female pianists--apart from Crawford & those already mentioned--the Connoisseur Society label was supportive of a number of the fine American female pianists, but sadly the label has gone out of business. I most enjoyed Elizabeth Rich's excellent survey of Mozart Piano Sonatas on Connoisseur (and her Haydn & Brahms too); along with Cynthia Raim's Schumann & Brahms, and Zaidee Parkinson's Debussy Preludes.

I've also enjoyed the piano playing of American born pianists Barbara Nissman, Constance Keene, Rosalyn Tureck, Hephzibah Menuhin (in chamber music), and Lydia Artymiw over the years. (And historically, there was Amy Fay, who studied with Liszt.)

I'm a fan of Ivan Moravec too. But I think of him more for his wonderful Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Janacek, Debussy, Haydn and Mozart. I'll have to dig out his Beethoven tonight and give it a listen.

Quote from: Todd on January 04, 2018, 06:25:53 AM

Claire Huangci is an outstanding pianist, but she's not famous yet. (Hopefully she gets there.) Other living pianists of note, depending on outlook, include Ursula Oppens, Simone Dinnerstein, Anne-Marie McDermott, and Orli Shaham. Ruth Laredo was quite good and reasonably famous. But there should definitely be more and they don't seem to achieve the same type of fame as some male pianists.

Thanks for the names. Lots to investigate there!

Marc · January 04, 2018, 10:56:52 AM

Quote from: Pat B on January 04, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
I misspelled "op. 111."

Aha.

Well, I'm glad I have the 'budget' EMI/Warner Kovacevich box... but now you've made me curious about the 'skipped' op. 111 (recorded in November 1991, issued in July 1992).
Oh dear.

Josquin13 · January 04, 2018, 11:00:54 AM

Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

Marc

Turner

Marc