Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

The mentions of literature and painting seem far from the original point I wished to make, which is just that the French school of piano playing, which I would say emphasizes a lighter touch on the keyboard and the idea that expression should be combined with elegance, is a fruitful approach to Beethoven.

[amw]

I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I would never claim that you can tell the nationality of pianist by listening, or that a "French" approach is only achieved by natives of that country. (Maybe it was more likely to be true 100 years ago when music was a more local phenomenon.) But I think I can identify a lighter, more elegant approach to the music, whether it can be objectively called "French." And aside from birth, I don't think it is implausible that a pianist whose bread and butter is performing Faure, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc would have different instincts when a score of Beethoven or Brahms is set in front of them.

[Madiel]

And aside from birth, I don't think it is implausible that a pianist whose bread and butter is performing Faure, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc would have different instincts when a score of Beethoven or Brahms is set in front of them.

Hmm. Which I think is kind of where I had a problem with the concept. Because I would like as much as possible for a pianist to enter Beethoven's world, rather than pulling Beethoven into theirs.

There's actually some good evidence that language influences composition at least, e.g. that French composers tend to have certain characteristics that are reflective of the French language, even when they're not setting texts.

But Beethoven is not French, aborted ideas of a dedication to Napoleon notwithstanding. And to my mind I don't think it's ideal for him to be played in a French way any more than I think it's ideal for German to be spoken with a strong French accent.

I might actually be perfectly happy with the recordings we were talking about of course. But it wouldn't be on the basis that I considered the playing to be in a French style.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Hmm. Which I think is kind of where I had a problem with the concept. Because I would like as much as possible for a pianist to enter Beethoven's world, rather than pulling Beethoven into theirs.

There's actually some good evidence that language influences composition at least, e.g. that French composers tend to have certain characteristics that are reflective of the French language, even when they're not setting texts.

But Beethoven is not French, aborted ideas of a dedication to Napoleon notwithstanding. And to my mind I don't think it's ideal for him to be played in a French way any more than I think it's ideal for German to be spoken with a strong French accent.

I might actually be perfectly happy with the recordings we were talking about of course. But it wouldn't be on the basis that I considered the playing to be in a French style.

I would say it is "French" just to the extent that 20th century French composers seemed to seek an alternative to the increasingly heavy expressiveness and density of German music at the time. I'm not so much interested in "French" Beethoven as more graceful, elegant Beethoven. I wouldn't say it is the exclusive province of the French.

[Mandryka]

I have complete or partial Beethoven sonata cycles from Paul Badura-Skoda, Michaël Lévinas, András Schiff, Kazune Shimizu, Stewart Goodyear, Michael Korstick, Yusuke Kikuchi, Paul Komen, Stephen Kovacevich, Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Rudolf Serkin, Paavali Jumppanen and Friedrich Gulda along with plenty of individual releases. I would be hard pressed to identify any of them as being from the French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch or Japanese schools of piano playing on a blind test.

Suspect that knowing the name of the performer can lend a certain bias to proceedings—if I gave many classical music reviewers a recording of the Waldstein and told them it was by Claude-André Baguette, they would probably review it as being a "representative of the French school" and possessing a "Gallic lightness", whereas giving them the same recording under the name of Hans-Jürgen von Sauerkraut would lead to comments about the "Germanic ponderousness" and so on.

I've meant to buy this book for years but never have. I think French pianists developed a distinctive way of touching the keys, it's got a name, something like the "plink plonk school" -- I'm not joking. Pianists like Maguerite Long

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I've meant to buy this book for years but never have. I think French pianists developed a distinctive way of touching the keys, it's got a name, something like the "plink plonk school" -- I'm not joking. Pianists like Maguerite Long

Interesting, but I would imagine that regional styles have faded as classical music has become more cosmopolitan.

[Florestan]

I would say it is "French" just to the extent that 20th century French composers seemed to seek an alternative to the increasingly heavy expressiveness and density of German music at the time.

Well, I'd say the (healthy) French reaction started well before the 20th century. Saint-Saens, Alkan, Gounod, Bizet, Massenet, Chabrier, Faure, not to mention the crème de la crème, ie Chopin --- there's little in their piano music that they really owe to Beethoven, who although settling in Vienna nevertheless carried an all-too-heavy North Germanic baggage which Haydn found a little too cumbersome. Same thing happened to Brahms, but he had no Haydn to warn him about the dangers --- on the contrary, he had the all-too-North-Germanic Schumann as a prophet.

Don't get me wrong, I love Beethoven, Schumann and Brahms not less than you all do --- but I can't help noticing that their names and heritage were used in establishing a framework in which lighter, more relaxed, less heroic, less tragic or downright non-heroic and non-tragic musical works were seen as frivolous, trivial and not worthy of the "art" status --- the corollary being that musical works which previous generations associated with anything but serious, tragic and heroic, yet were composed by (German) big names, were appropriated by the "Doom&Gloom Brigade", which is a thing wholely and solely of German origin and conception. 

And don't even get me started on Wagner --- the biggest killjoy in the entire European music history, a handful of his fanatic devotees notwithstanding. I defy anyone in his right mind to sit stiff and still for more than two hours a night, four nights in a row, and claim they experienced pleasure. 

[ritter]

...
And don't even get me started on Wagner --- the biggest killjoy in the entire European music history, a handful of his fanatic devotees notwithstanding. I defy anyone in his right mind to sit stiff and still for more than two hours a night, four nights in a row, and claim they experienced pleasure. 

Reporting for duty, Sir! 

[Florestan]

Reporting for duty, Sir! 

As I said, a handful of fanatics notwithstanding. 

[Mandryka]

I thought this was really funny, she reminds me of my mum's hairdresser in the 1960s

https://www.youtube.com/v/45DrMuzTeCU

[ritter]

As I said, a handful of fanatics notwithstanding. 

Mmmmm...¡qué atrevida es la ignorancia! 

[Florestan]

Mmmmm...¡qué atrevida es la ignorancia! 

I don't know if this reply is addressed to me or to Mandryka, but in my turn I can't help quoting Stravinsky:

I maintain that there is more substance and true invention in the aria 'La donna è mobile,' for example, in which this elite saw nothing but deplorable facility, than in the rhetoric and vociferations of the 'Ring

Take that, Richard Wagner! (or should I be so atrevido as to say take that, Rafael!) 

[ritter]

Andrei, your mailbox is full....

[Jo498]

Sorry, but the only one of those mentioned who could be described as "North German" is Brahms. Beethoven was from the Rhineland and while it does not really fit Beethoven's character those people have the reputation of being the most light-hearted and funny ones. Schumann and Wagner were Saxons which was right in the middle of Germany (back then with Prussia and Silesia extending far east). And Mendelssohn was from the north (grew up in Berlin, born in Hamburg) but there is not much northern Germanic about his music.
The most original French composer of the first half of the 19th century, Berlioz, was certainly more heroic and madly romantic than Schumann or Brahms. Or at least he liked to pose in such a fashion.

[Florestan]

Andrei, your mailbox is full....

Not anymore...

[Florestan]

Sorry, but the only one of those mentioned who could be described as "North German" is Brahms.

Okay, granted. Brahms born in Hamburg.

Beethoven was from the Rhineland and while it does not really fit Beethoven's character those people have the reputation of being the most light-hearted and funny ones.

If the most light-hearted and funny Germans are the Rhinelanders, then is it right to claim that the echt-Austrians like Schubert and Strauss I and II are conspicuously not German? Is it right to claim that Haydn is not even Austrian?

Schumann and Wagner were Saxons which was right in the middle of Germany (back then with Prussia and Silesia extending far east). And Mendelssohn was from the north (grew up in Berlin, born in Hamburg) but there is not much northern Germanic about his music.
The most original French composer of the first half of the 19th century, Berlioz, was certainly more heroic and madly romantic than Schumann or Brahms. Or at least he liked to pose in such a fashion.

That is all so confusing... What I do know is that I thoroughly reject any narrative that presents "German" music as serious and "non-German" music as non-serious... Sturm un Drang is hugely overrated, while Biederneyer is hugely underrated,,,

[Jo498]

As I said above, I don't think that the "national characters" make a lot of sense in most music. There existed different styles already in the baroque, sure. But they got mixed up already by Couperin and certainly by Bach and Telemann and the second half of the 18th century and the early 19th century were quite cosmopolitan. The great reformer of the French opera was the German Gluck, the greatest composers of Italian opera were Handel in the 1720s and Mozart in the 1780s. The most important "Spanish" composers were Domenico Scarlatti and Lugi Boccherini. The Italian Cherubini dominated the French scene in the early 1800s. Haydn was the most popular composer of instrumental music both in Paris and London where a little later the chief piano virtuosi were Dussek and Clementi (o.k. Britain was such a musical wasteland that they imported everybody).
And while in the first half of the 19th century this changed to some extent, with German language opera slowly beginning to establish itself. But still there are cosmopolitan figures like Liszt who can hardly be claimed by any nation or culture.
Still, for instrumental music the Austro-Germans dominated the field, to the extent that this tradition was not really understood as regional or local in the sense of the developing Russian or Scandinavian "Nationalist" schools. Glinka, Gade, Grieg and others came to Germany or Vienna to study with the established composers. Like some baroque Germans had travelled to Italy.

All this has little to do with "light" or "serious", of course.

[Madiel]

Florestan, it was pretty much you who DID present a narrative of German seriousness.

Or at least bought into an existing one.

Anyway, I've long been of the view that different music serves different purposes. Some composers are more adept at varying their palette than others. Beethoven was fairly adept.

[Jo498]

The interesting thing with Beethoven is that if one simply counts the pieces, the humorous and lyrical/pastoral actually dominate the "heroic" ones although of course there are more aspects than these two or three and many pieces encompass all of them. But the reception after Beethoven's death mostly focussed on the "heroic" aspect, with a few important exceptions like the Pastoral symphony.