Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

Started by George, July 21, 2007, 07:27:17 PM

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(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Brian on February 21, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Huh! I'm usually very sensitive to stop-and-start and small pauses - I hate it - but never noticed it with her.

It bothers me only before the very final chord of 110. I want that conclusion to drive forward in tempo. I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Mandryka

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.

Very good. You're a postmodern listener.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Brian

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 21, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
It bothers me only before the very final chord of 110. I want that conclusion to drive forward in tempo. I may even rip the disc and edit that part to my liking.
Oh, you're right, she definitely does it there.

amw

Quote from: staxomega on February 21, 2019, 06:38:23 AM
I listened to Stewart Goodyear's set "The Middle Sonatas", am I crazy to think he reminds me of Rudolf Serkin in many places? He has that "angularity" to his playing where it sounds like he is reaching or climbing and he can change directions on a dime, this is exciting playing. His liner notes are excellent as well, and written with a youthful affectation for the scores (his note on wondering how Op. 15 would fit in Disney's Fantasia makes complete sense to me). Where I am quite disappointed with his set and what struck it off my list of keeper sets is he plays the slow movements too briskly, like in the Adagio of Op. 31/1 or Minuetto of 31/3 where I would find someone like Lucchesini beyond human. This turns many of the sonatas into a 1 dimensional affair, almost like he has to build himself as some concert virtuoso. I would be interested if he revisits the cycle later in his career.

It's a very good set, and performing the slow movements fairly moderately is much more historically accurate (& potentially more effective). My main criticism of the set & feeling of 1 dimensionality comes from the dynamics and colours I think, his playing doesn't seem to have the kind of differentiation and contrast of some other pianists. And he's fairly metronomic but hardly the worst offender in that regard.

(poco) Sforzando

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Madiel

I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

Quote from: Madiel on February 22, 2019, 02:19:32 PM
Toying with reality is very current.

The recording producer/editor does it, why not us?

Madiel

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 22, 2019, 02:20:49 PM
The recording producer/editor does it, why not us?

I could write a couple of pages on why not. Some of which would discuss moral rights, and most of which would be centred on why everybody believing they can do everybody else's job is one of the great dangers of modern technology, but it would probably divert into a discussion of how we get Claudio Colombo attempting to drown the internet in utterly vapid "performances" of nearly everything in the repertoire.

But so long as it's purely for your own private use, go ahead and shape your little piece of the universe.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

aukhawk

#4088
Once we have bought a recording (vinyl, CD or download) we think of it as being 'my property' - as in, "I have Klemperer's Beethoven Pastoral Symphony".  As such we can do what we like with it.  I can think of many multi-movement musical works where I habitually skip one or more of the movements.  It's an advantage of being a home (or mobile) listener rather than being a concertgoer.

Returning to those Crawford recordings - late Beethoven and major-key Beethoven generally is not really my thing, but this discussion did pique my interest and I've really enjoyed what I've listened to so far, of the two Crawford collections of late sonatas.  Especially No.27 Op.90 which was music I'm not familiar with at all.  But generally I really like the light, somewhat backward-looking feel of what I've heard.  I would call it an antidote to the late sonatas which generally are too stodgy for me.

Mandryka

And for me, not finding much of interest in Crawford, I went back to this recording, with great pleasure

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Madiel

#4091
Quote from: aukhawk on February 23, 2019, 02:07:34 AM
I can think of many multi-movement musical works where I habitually skip one or more of the movements.  It's an advantage of being a home (or mobile) listener rather than being a concertgoer.

And again, I can think of a lot I would say against such a practice. People now tend to deplore the 19th century practice of shuffling movements between symphonies, something which definitely happened to Beethoven. Your habit is basically no different.

You can do it if you like. Just don't kid yourself that you're listening to what the composer wanted you to listen to. Or the performers for that matter. And recognise that you are distorting all sorts of things about tempo and proportion and key relationship that were planned.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

amw

Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).
I mean at this point all the sonatas are frequently played & recorded; outside the famous "name" sonatas (Appassionata, Pastorale, Hammerklavier etc) and the last three I like Op.2/2, 7, 10/1-3, 31/3, 78, 90, 101 the most. The last five are several notches qualitatively above the rest, but only in that Beethoven lavished significantly more time and care on them than the remainder, to the point of giving each of the last three its own opus number rather than publishing as a set like Op.2, 10, 14, 27 or 31. So this belief about their greater importance comes from Beethoven himself & is how he wished them to be perceived—but quite honestly in none of those five sonatas could he achieve the effortless grace and humour of a 31/3 or a 10/2 & he probably didn't want to.

amw

Also it must be said from the perspective of posterity that the middle period sonatas were much more influential than the late ones, sometimes to a very obvious extent—compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

Florestan

Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 02:57:50 AM
I mean at this point all the sonatas are frequently played & recorded; outside the famous "name" sonatas (Appassionata, Pastorale, Hammerklavier etc) and the last three I like Op.2/2, 7, 10/1-3, 31/3, 78, 90, 101 the most. The last five are several notches qualitatively above the rest, but only in that Beethoven lavished significantly more time and care on them than the remainder, to the point of giving each of the last three its own opus number rather than publishing as a set like Op.2, 10, 14, 27 or 31. So this belief about their greater importance comes from Beethoven himself & is how he wished them to be perceived—but quite honestly in none of those five sonatas could he achieve the effortless grace and humour of a 31/3 or a 10/2 & he probably didn't want to.

Thanks.

Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
Also it must be said from the perspective of posterity that the middle period sonatas were much more influential than the late ones, sometimes to a very obvious extent—compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

And thanks again, will do it after dinner.  :) Any particular recordings you'd recommend?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

#4095
Quote from: amw on February 23, 2019, 03:01:01 AM
compare 31/3/i to Schumann's Op.41/3/i for example.

I just did. You do have a point, the latter sounds like a string quartet version of the former,  at least as far as the first 3 minutes of each work go.  :)

Now it makes me wonder: is is just coincidence or a conscious choice of Schumann?

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AMSo my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing?


I'm not sure what is meant by "great ones".  All or most of them are great.


Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AMdo you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas?


Yes.


Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
Which and why?


Various sonatas for various reasons.  I may have posted on it before.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#4097
Quote from: Todd on February 23, 2019, 04:49:06 AM

I'm not sure what is meant by "great ones".  All or most of them are great.



Yes.



Various sonatas for various reasons.  I may have posted on it before.

You know, I applaud this approach in the other thread, where it is entirely appropriate. In this one I find it unnecessarily supercilious --- I am here to learn and discover, not to showcase my alleged, yet inexistent, knowledge or moral superiority.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

staxomega

#4098
Quote from: amw on February 21, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
It's a very good set, and performing the slow movements fairly moderately is much more historically accurate (& potentially more effective). My main criticism of the set & feeling of 1 dimensionality comes from the dynamics and colours I think, his playing doesn't seem to have the kind of differentiation and contrast of some other pianists. And he's fairly metronomic but hardly the worst offender in that regard.

I can see that on the color and dynamics, but I didn't think he was that bad in this respect as that is something that would quickly have it on non consideration list and I did go back and forth on Goodyear's for some time. For instance on color this is one area where I feel like the very well loved Gulda Amadeo is lacking so it's one I'm personally not a particularly big fan of, as unpopular as this opinion may be. With some ~ 15 cycles complete/near incomplete and asking myself would I really want to revisit a cycle often (or even a few times if being lenient) I'm starting to be more stringent on my requirements for keeping something.
Edit- just to give some basis for where my tastes tend to lean for complete/incomplete these are the ones I would want to take with me to a desert island- Annie Fischer, Andrea Lucchesini, Backhaus mono, Rudolf Serkin, Eric Heidsieck and combination of Arrau's EMI/American Decca or Philips analog.

Mandryka

#4099
Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
aukhawk's comments above made me think about how the major sonatas are overplayed and considered echt-Beethoven, while the others are neglected and considered somehow inferior. So my question is: do you subscribe to the notion that only the great ones are truly worth hearing? do you have any favorites among the lesser appreciated, less frequently played and recorded sonatas? Which and why? (Okay, that's four questions, actually).

I find it all depends on performance, sometimes recordings capture my imagination. This one, for example, has op 14/2 and I love it, it really touches me.



And this op 22 by Pommier

https://youtube.com/v/RG2QfSC2J-Q
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen