Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

The Sohn cycle appears to have been pulled from all commercial streaming sites, and as far as I can tell it was not released in physical form, at least outside the Korean market.  That's common for Korean market releases.  It may be available on torrent sites.

[lordlance]

It's somewhat amusing (to me) that despite being twenty years older than the Brautigam cycle, Badura-Skoda's fortepiano sounds much better and less - you'll have to excuse me if this is too technical for some of you - clanky.   

[Todd]

Eight more cycles down, which can only mean it's time to refresh The One True List:


The Top Ten – in order, as determined by Science!
Minsoo Sohn
Andrea Lucchesini
Annie Fischer
Daniel-Ben Pienaar
Irina Mejoueva (Bijin)
Artur Schnabel
Russell Sherman
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Yu Kosuge
Eric Heidsieck

[Rudolf Serkin & Sviatoslav Richter; OK, they didn't complete a cycle, but this is where they belong]


Second Tier - Cycles 11-20 (in alphabetical order)
Francois Frederic Guy
Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo)
Kazune Shimizu (Sony)
Paul Badura-Skoda (JVC/Astree)
Robert Riefling
Takahiro Sonoda (Evica)
Wilhelm Backhaus (mono)
Wilhelm Backhaus (stereo)
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, stereo)
Yusuke Kikuchi


Second Tier - Remainder (in alphabetical order)
Bernard Roberts II
Claude Frank
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 2005)
Eduardo del Pueyo
Emil Gilels
Fazil Say
Friedrich Gulda (Orfeo)
Hie-Yon Choi
Maurizio Pollini
Maurizio Zaccaria
Michael Levinas
Peter Takacs
Robert Silverman
Rudolf Buchbinder (Unitel)
Seymour Lipkin
Takahiro Sonoda (Denon)
Tamami Honma
Younwha Lee

[Bruce Hungerford; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Third Tier (in alphabetical order)
Aquiles Delle Vigne
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Mirare)
Akiyoshi Sako
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1970s)
Alfred Brendel (Vox)
Alfredo Perl (Arte Nova)
Andras Schiff
Boris Giltburg
Claudio Arrau (1960s)
Claudio Arrau (1980s)
Craig Sheppard
Daniel Barenboim (EuroArts, 1983/84)
Daniel Barenboim (DG)
Daniel Barenboim (EMI, 1960s)
David Allen Wehr
Dieter Zechlin
Friedrich Gulda (Decca)
Garrick Ohlsson
Gerard Willems
Gerhard Oppitz
Ian Hobson
Ichiro Nodaira
Igor Levit
Irina Mejoueva (Waka)
James Brawn
Jingge Yan
John O'Conor
Jonathan Biss
Konstantin Scherbakov
Kun-Woo Paik
Louie Lortie
Malcolm Bilson, et al (Beghin is second tier)
Malcolm Binns
Martin Roscoe
Massimiliano Damerini
Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)
Michael Houstoun (Rattle)
Michael Korstick
Muriel Chemin
Paul Badura-Skoda (Gramola)
Pavaali Jumppanen
Peter Rösel
Robert Silverman (AudioHigh)
Rudolf Buchbinder (Teldec)
Saleem Abboud Ashkar
Sequeira Costa
Stephen Kovacevich
Stewart Goodyear
Walter Gieseking (EMI/Tahra hybrid)
Wilhelm Kempff (1961, King International)
Yaeko Yamane
Yurina Tetsu
Yves Nat


Fourth Tier (in alphabetical order)
Abdel Rahman El Bacha (Forlane)
Aldo Ciccolini
Alfred Brendel (Philips, 1990s)
Andre De Groote
Angela Hewitt
Anton Kuerti
Christian Leotta
Daniel Barenboim (DG, 2020)
Dino Ciani
Georges Pludermacher
Giovanni Bellucci
Idil Biret
Ikuyo Nakamichi
Jean Bernard Pommier
Jean Muller
Jean-Efflam Bavouzet
Jeno Jando
John Kane
John Lill
Konstantin Lifschitz
Llŷr Williams
Mari Kodama
Maria Grinburg
Martin Rasch
Martino Tirimo   
Melodie Zhao
Mikhail Lidsky
Paul Lewis
Richard Goode
Robert Benz
Robert Taub
Ronald Brautigam
Rudolf Buchbinder (RCA)
Sebastian Forster
Steven Herbert Smith
Steven Masi
Timothy Ehlen
Vladimir Ashkenazy
Yukio Yokoyama


Near Bottom Tier (in sorta particular order)
HJ Lim
Rita Bouboulidi
Tatiana Nikolayeva
Anne Oland
Mordecai Shehori


Eighth Circle of Hell
[Glenn Gould; OK, he didn't complete a cycle, but this is where he belongs]


Crime Against Humanity
Riccardo Schwartz

[Todd]

And here's how the tiers break down in visual form:

[Todd]

I just did a quick, mini-rabbit hole thing regarding available Beethoven piano sonata cycles, and it turns out that Grok cites me as a primary resource on the topic.  That is a problem.

It is worth noting that neither Grok, nor Gemini, nor Copilot got the number right, with Copilot way off, and Grok by far the closest.

The results did not instill confidence in AI output. 

[San Antone]

I just did a quick, mini-rabbit hole thing regarding available Beethoven piano sonata cycles, and it turns out that Grok cites me as a primary resource on the topic.  That is a problem.

It is worth noting that neither Grok, nor Gemini, nor Copilot got the number right, with Copilot way off, and Grok by far the closest.

The results did not instill confidence in AI output. 

It seems AI has the same problem some members on GMG have, i.e. unable to discern the humor in the hyperbolic claim of "the only scientific ranking in history."

[Todd]

It seems AI has the same problem some members on GMG have, i.e. unable to discern the humor in the hyperbolic claim of "the only scientific ranking in history."

Grok referenced other posts/contributions of mine on other forums and sites, not GMG, which it did not list among its sources.  There is no doubt LLMs have difficulty with hyperbole and irony.

[prémont]

It seems AI has the same problem some members on GMG have, i.e. unable to discern the humor in the hyperbolic claim of "the only scientific ranking in history."

You're clearly referring to me among others. So I shall reiterate my point, which is that I find it contradictory to make a ranking that isn't meant to be literal.

[Todd]

So I shall reiterate my point, which is that I find it contradictory to make a ranking that isn't meant to be literal.

Contradictory how?

[AnotherSpin]

You're clearly referring to me among others. So I shall reiterate my point, which is that I find it contradictory to make a ranking that isn't meant to be literal.

I agree. Irony that needs explaining stops being irony. A joke that needs clarification stops being a joke.

[prémont]

Contradictory how?

I assume that the purpose of making a ranking is to give others an idea of what is worth listening to and what is not. Therefore, the ranking becomes contradictory and not indicative if it cannot be taken at face value, even if you claim a scientific approach to the subject.

[Todd]

even if you claim a scientific approach to the subject.

LOL.  No such claim was seriously made.  The list is for fun, for my purposes, and that's it.  Your interpretation perfectly illustrates a pitfall of self-serious intellectualism.

[hopefullytrusting]

I assume that the purpose of making a ranking is to give others an idea of what is worth listening to and what is not. Therefore, the ranking becomes contradictory and not indicative if it cannot be taken at face value, even if you claim a scientific approach to the subject.

Maybe, I'm too simple, but that is how I have always taken the tier system. Like the top tier is what @Todd would recommend and/or suggest to someone who was interested in getting a set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. Now, I know he is wrong because my favorite Beethoven set - Goodyear - is in the fat part of his bell curve!

[Todd]

Now, I know he is wrong because my favorite Beethoven set - Goodyear - is in the fat part of his bell curve!

The empirical evidence, scientifically considered, shows that Mr Goodyear, while delivering some notable highlights, and splendid playing (eg, in the opening Allegro of 106), falls within the third tier.  It is all quite irrefutable. 

[hopefullytrusting]

The empirical evidence, scientifically considered, shows that Mr Goodyear, while delivering some notable highlights, and splendid playing (eg, in the opening Allegro of 106), falls within the third tier.  It is all quite irrefutable. 

Ahem, in academic parlance this is a classic case of the replication crisis.

[Todd]

Ahem, in academic parlance this is a classic case of the replication crisis.

[prémont]

Maybe, I'm too simple, but that is how I have always taken the tier system. Like the top tier is what @Todd would recommend and/or suggest to someone who was interested in getting a set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. Now, I know he is wrong because my favorite Beethoven set - Goodyear - is in the fat part of his bell curve!

Don't worry. A large number of my favorites fall into Todd's third tier (Arrau, Jingge Jan, Barenboim, Lortie, Goodyear, and more), and several of Todd's first tiers do very little for me (Pienaar, Kosuge, Sohn).

[prémont]

No such claim was seriously made.The list is for fun, for my purposes, and that's it.

Good to hear this from yourself. But why publish the list if it only serves your own purposes? Why should it interest others if they didn't think the list was seriously meant?

Your interpretation perfectly illustrates a pitfall of self-serious intellectualism.

Isn't it rather your list which perfectly illustrates a pitfall of self-serious intellectualism?

[Todd]

Good to hear this from yourself.

See below.

But why publish the list if it only serves your own purposes?

For fun.  Also, I post, I do not publish.

Why should it interest others if they didn't think the list was seriously meant?

Only self-serious intellectuals take my posts seriously.  A title like "The Most Important LvB Piano Sonata Cycle Comparison in the History of the World" is self-evidently unserious.  People can read or not read the posts as they see fit.  I strongly suggest that people who do read the posts not take them seriously. 

Isn't it rather your list which perfectly illustrates a pitfall of self-serious intellectualism?

No.  I am not now, nor have I ever been, an intellectual.

Hopefully that helps.

[AnotherSpin]

Good to hear this from yourself. But why publish the list if it only serves your own purposes? Why should it interest others if they didn't think the list was seriously meant?

[...]

That's what makes the situation rather amusing, isn't it. The author puts on an ironic mask: flashy titles, claims of not being serious, denial of any intellectual identity, yet reacts to others' irony as if it were a threat. It's not merely a mismatch; it's a kind of theatre, someone who says he's playing but insists on being taken seriously when others join in.

A form of rhetorical monopolism. One claims the right to irony but denies it to others. He sets the rules of the game but won't let anyone else play. There's a kind of ironic narcissism at work as well. The outer layer of humour shields a deeper seriousness that cannot bear competition. When others adopt the same tone, he sees it as an attack on his uniqueness.

Up to a point, it can be rather amusing. Or not anymore.