Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[prémont]

I see. In my opinion one really has to divide early/middle and late sonatas, because interpretations address or not a fundamental shift in Beethoven's compositional style, though without losing humor. This is why Bruce Hungerford could have been the greatest cycle, Gilels for an expansive view. Solomon I find a little dry.

There is certainly much sense in discussing ones favorites for the early, middle and late sonates separately, but unfortunately most complete sets do not group the releases in that way.

[karlhenning]

Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethoven´s sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers, and this is why I find Kempff´s subdued approach relevant.

QFT.

[Mandryka]

Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

You're not allowed to tell  me that he sometimes gets his fingers tied up. In a great pianist that sort of thing doesn't matter

[Mandryka]

I see. In my opinion one really has to divide early/middle and late sonatas, because interpretations address or not a fundamental shift in Beethoven's compositional style, though without losing humor. This is why Bruce Hungerford could have been the greatest cycle, Gilels for an expansive view. Solomon I find a little dry.

Can you explain a bit more about this fundamental shift?

Is the idea that some performers somehow are more sensitive to things in his earlier work than his later work? I'm not sure I understand. Help!

By the way -- I don't know why you mention humour. There's plenty of humour in the late music -- in the Hamerklavkier and in the Diabelli Variations and bagatelles.

The pianists I like most in Beethoven --  Arrau, Gould, Frank, Levy, Fischer (Herr and Frau), Schnabel, Richter, Sofronitsky, Yudina   -- all have successes and failues all through the sonatas. Maybe Gulda I like most in the earlier stuff (except maybe VVS and EL who didn't play any real early ones)

[George]

Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

You're not allowed to tell  me that he sometimes gets his fingers tied up. In a great pianist that sort of thing doesn't matter

Can't say I hjave heard it, but would love to. Hint Hint

[Mandryka]

Can't say I hjave heard it, but would love to. Hint Hint

OK that's easy.

[prémont]

Is there anyone else here who is a fan of Edwin Fischer's late , live, Beethoven? Such  a joyful spirit -- and you can really clearly hear his limpid piano tone.

I am surprised to read this. Of all the pianists born around 1890-1900 Edwin Fischer seems to me to be the one, who interpretation-wise is most akin to Kempff (or is related to a better way to express it?). I own and know the live Music & Arts twoCD, you think of. The relative small number of wrong notes in the live recordings does not bother me the least, but may I answer your question by saying, that I find E Fischers playing more authoritative and rewarding in his studio recordings of op.10.no.3 and op.57 and the Piano concertos no. 3 and 4? Have not heard the Emperor (with Furtwängler) so far, even if I own it.

[Leon]

Kempff plays a Steinway grand, but Beethovens sonatas were not written for this instrument and its great dynamic powers

I don't think Beethoven was writing ideally for the pianos of his day since in his late works he wrote thing impossible for any piano, crescendo dynamic markings on a held note for example.  No, I think he was imagining a much bigger sound than any piano to which he had access could produce and think the Steinway a perfectly suitable instrument to fully realize his music as Beethoven might have hoped it could sound.

All speculation.

[Mandryka]

I am surprised to read this. Of all the pianists born around 1890-1900 Edwin Fischer seems to me to be the one, who interpretation-wise is most akin to Kempff (or is related to a better way to express it?). I own and know the live Music & Arts twoCD, you think of. The relative small number of wrong notes in the live recordings does not bother me the least, but may I answer your question by saying, that I find E Fischers playing more authoritative and rewarding in his studio recordings of op.10.no.3 and op.57 and the Piano concertos no. 3 and 4? Have not heard the Emperor (with Furtwängler) so far, even if I own it.

Yes no doubt the earlier Fischer recordings are greater documents. I know 10/3 best -- I'm interested in the early sonatas. It's a long time since I heard Kempff's stereo 10/3 but I know the mono one reasonably well. To my ears it's fussier than Fischer's, it's not as plain speaking, though I appreciate that that's not very clear. Neither is it as intense, driven. But the mono Kempff 10/3 is good, no doubt about it. I haven't ripped the stereo recording so it's a bit harder for me to hear.

I still appreciate those live sonatas for the sound. And the conception. You know, he suffered from stage fright badly.

One Kempff recording I haven't heard is the PC 4 (Beethoven) on Testament (I have the other one he recorded but I don't much like it.

[prémont]

One Kempff recording I haven't heard is the PC 4 (Beethoven) on Testament (I have the other one he recorded but I don't much like it.

I wonder which one this is. I mean, I have not seen recordings by Kempff released on Testament.

To my knowledge he made three recordings of the PC 4.

One prewar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One mono postwar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One stereo recording conducted by F Leitner.

[Mandryka]

I wonder which one this is. I mean, I have not seen recordings by Kempff released on Testament.

To my knowledge he made three recordings of the PC 4.

One prewar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One mono postwar recording conducted by van Kempen.
One stereo recording conducted by F Leitner.

Sorry I meant Fischer -- this one

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[Clever Hans]

Can you explain a bit more about this fundamental shift?

Is the idea that some performers somehow are more sensitive to things in his earlier work than his later work? I'm not sure I understand. Help!

By the way -- I don't know why you mention humour. There's plenty of humour in the late music -- in the Hamerklavkier and in the Diabelli Variations and bagatelles.

The pianists I like most in Beethoven --  Arrau, Gould, Frank, Levy, Fischer (Herr and Frau), Schnabel, Richter, Sofronitsky, Yudina   -- all have successes and failues all through the sonatas. Maybe Gulda I like most in the earlier stuff (except maybe VVS and EL who didn't play any real early ones)

I agree.
I said "without losing humor" because I meant that the best interpretations of the late sonatas preserve the humor. Seems like it appeared I meant something else.

In terms of fundamental shift, I see the late sonatas as more unbounded and metaphysical in character (and concentrated and fugal), but not without humor and sentiment. They are also highly innovative in structure and harmony, so I prefer interpretations which clearly understand and capture these qualities (e.g. Rosen).

[Mandryka]

I agree.
I said "without losing humor" because I meant that the best interpretations of the late sonatas preserve the humor. Seems like it appeared I meant something else.

In terms of fundamental shift, I see the late sonatas as more unbounded and metaphysical in character (and concentrated and fugal), but not without humor and sentiment. They are also highly innovative in structure and harmony, so I prefer interpretations which clearly understand and capture these qualities (e.g. Rosen). [my emphasis]

I think you're touching on something very interesting. One think I feel about late Beethoven is that the music is modernist in spirit -- revolutionary, forward looking. And that this is often obscured -- by Arrau for example, or Ney. These pianists put the accent on something transcendental, and in doing so hide the modernity.

You've made me keen to listen to Rosen again. And to hear some more Hungerford (I have one CD, with the Waldstien, which I haven't given enough attention to)

What do you think of Maria Grinberg?  She tries to capture this modernist spirit.

By the way, I've become very keen to hear Arrau's third cycle. The one that was marketed Arrau Heritage. Can anyone help. A link to the set for sale or something (I'm not trying to scrounge an upload ) I can't see it anywhere.
 
I've been enjoyig Arrau's very late recordings over the past couple of days, in the Final Recordings box. There's a lovely Op 79.

[George]

By the way, I've become very keen to hear Arrau's third cycle. The one that was marketed Arrau Heritage. Can anyone help. A link to the set for sale or something (I'm not trying to scrounge an upload ) I can't see it anywhere.
 

Those Heritage boxes are rare. Weren't they limited edition?

BTW, I now have all three Arrau (EMI, incomplete; Philips analog and digital) LvB sets and plan to do some comparitive listening soon. Will post muy findings here. 

[Todd]

Arrau has three cycles?  Just how much of the cycle did he record for EMI?  The online discographies show pretty large gaps, so large that I don't know how it can be called a cycle.

[George]

Arrau has three cycles?  Just how much of the cycle did he record for EMI?  The online discographies show pretty large gaps, so large that I don't know how it can be called a cycle.

To me, it is significant enough to be called an incomplete set because it was recorded much earlier than the other two and it tends to get overlooked. I haven't added them up and I am not at home, but between the Icon set and the earlier 5CD LvB set, there's gotta be more than a third of the full set there. In my book that's enough to call it an incomplete set. Technically, he only has one complete set, the analog one he did for Philips in the sixties.   

[Mandryka]

For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

For Columbia there was Op 53 and Op 81a

There are some live recordings of course, on APR (has anyone heard the late sonatas there?) And on BBC Legends, and no doubt elesewhere -- And some DVDs -- including  Op 111 on VAI

Sorry about mixing opus numbers and sonata numbers -- it's how they are tagged on my system.

[George]

For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

There are two that are in the EMI Icon set that weren't in the earlier 5CD set. 24 and 7. That brings us to ten for EMI.

[Holden]

For EMI there's sonata # 14, 21, 18, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32 -- 25% of a cycle.

For Columbia there was Op 53 and Op 81a

There are some live recordings of course, on APR (has anyone heard the late sonatas there?) And on BBC Legends, and no doubt elesewhere -- And some DVDs -- including  Op 111 on VAI

Sorry about mixing opus numbers and sonata numbers -- it's how they are tagged on my system.

Do you mean this one? I have it and quite like it. I got it mainly for Op 111 to complement my recording from the DVD of the same work. I was not disappointed.

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[Mandryka]

Do you mean this one? I have it and quite like it. I got it mainly for Op 111 to complement my recording from the DVD of the same work. I was not disappointed.

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I meant this one (your image doesn't work)