Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Mandryka]

Note, that I talked about Bach´s music - not Beethoven´s.  Bach´s  music is so to say universal, permeated by musical symbolism and describing common human affects, and I think it it adequate to say, that the meaning is in the music, and that the performers task is to find and express that meaning,

Direct me to some reading, either in English or in French, which is about this symbolism. Please  .

[Brian]

Well, that only goes to prove that two people can have very different impressions of the same performances.  I also have the Gilels and find myself listening to Kempff about 10 times for every 1 time I choose Gilels.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a very good thing. Otherwise discussion boards such as this one would be very dull places where everyone just says, "This guy's Beethoven is the best" "Yup" "yes" "oh yeah" "agreed" 
And then there'd be no reason for anyone else to play Beethoven!

I sometimes can't help but feel that when a performer/recording is given overflowing praise for a long time, that an inevitable backlash occurs and it becomes fashionable among some quarters to feel compelled to make negative comments about it.

Definitely agree with this too. It happens a lot with film too - thus the fashionable backlash against every single critically acclaimed movie by a token handful of people who think they "suck." I was part of the backlash against Avatar; my roommate in college was disgruntled about Citizen Kane!

[George]

Well, that only goes to prove that two people can have very different impressions of the same performances.  I also have the Gilels and find myself listening to Kempff about 10 times for every 1 time I choose Gilels.

And I enjoy them both equally.

[prémont]

Direct me to some reading, either in English or in French, which is about this symbolism. Please  .

The musical symbolism in Bachs music is most prominent in his sacred works (e.g. the cross figure). The treatise which opened my eyes to this world was a chapter in Albert Schweitzer´s classic book "J S Bach" written about a hundred years ago. I read it in German, but this book on Amazon uk.´s list seems to be a photo copy of the the book in English.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Albert-Schweitzer/dp/1172310297/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310833425&sr=1-2

However, I suppose that this classic should be available in well assorted English libraries.

[prémont]

If you Google : Symbolism in J S Bachs music, you will find some treatises about this topic, f.x. this:

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissboo7.htm

[mc ukrneal]

I thought the first movement had some moments of artfulness -- particularly in the voice handling -- which robbed the work of its poetry.  The second movement was slightly more vigorous than I had remembered, nonetheless too leaden, elephantine,  and emotionally flat. Emotionally empty actually.

In the last fugue the tempo gradation is not as smooth as it could be.  I could hear precious little intensity in the arioso dolente, and very little grace in the second arioso.

Well, what I hear is a bit of the opposite. His 110 would not be a first choice for me, but the gentleness and elegance, in the opening movement for example, are a welcome relief compared to some others who seem to pound away. His use of rubato is gloriously restrained - I cannot stand it when some pianists feel they need to use it ALL the time, robbing the piece of its center. And then when he does use it, it accents the moment in a beautiful way.

The third movement seems a bit lacking compared to the first, but his vision is clearly there and he sticks to it. I don't understand the comment about lack of intensity. It could mean he doesn't drive forward enough, he doesn't play loudly enough, he doesn't pound the keys, etc. Perhaps you mean something else? In any case, the intensity is more of a slow burn than a burst.

All I can add, I guess, is that his Beethoven has given me many, many pleasures and inisghts into the music.

[Drasko]

Does anyone know are there any bootlegs of Zimerman playing op.111 around? He played it in recitals often maybe year or two ago.

[Mandryka]

Does anyone know are there any bootlegs of Zimerman playing op.111 around? He played it in recitals often maybe year or two ago.

Not as far as I know. In Beethoven sonatas I have him playing  the Waldstien from a concert in Salzburg in 1984 and the Pathetique from a concert a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want them

[jwinter]

Thanks for the various recommendations, folks!  I just received a copy of Eric Heidsieck's set in the mail today, and am listening to the Moonlight as I type.  Very nice indeed; I'll listen through the whole set over the next couple of weeks (good to find a productive use for the 40 minute commute .

[Drasko]

Not as far as I know. In Beethoven sonatas I have him playing  the Waldstien from a concert in Salzburg in 1984 and the Pathetique from a concert a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want them

Sure, why not. Thanks. There is quite fine video of Pathetique by him on youtube, from Japan I think.
And please do let me know if op.111 shows up, I'm on bit of a op.111 kick now.

Thanks for the various recommendations, folks!  I just received a copy of Eric Heidsieck's set in the mail today, and am listening to the Moonlight as I type.  Very nice indeed; I'll listen through the whole set over the next couple of weeks (good to find a productive use for the 40 minute commute .

Wow, Bill sighting! Haven't seen that square jaw in years. Passing in the night or you'll be sticking around? Good to see you post anyhow.

[Mandryka]

.
I'm on bit of a op.111 kick now.

Some interesting ones I've heard recently -- Grinberg, Sokolov's Bolzano 2004, Pogorelich's second recording on DVD and the 2003 Athens concert (everything you would expect, but I love his style!) and Edith Vogel's live one from 1985. I have Lubimov's CD but I haven't given it much attention -- no good reason for that.

Also the Japanese remastering (from CD Japan) of Schnabel's second recording of it is well worth having

[Drasko]

Sokolov I have some older recording, LP transfer I think. It's very good but I really have to be in the mood for it or my mind starts to wander off somewhere around second variation.
Pogorelich first, studio recording doesn't work for me, molto semplice e cantabile doesn't seem to be his forte.
I have the Lubimov, but same as you haven't listened to it yet.

Last two I listened were Edwin Fischer ('54 live) and Pletnev from Carnegie Hall. Pletnev also doesn't do molto semplice but is to me far more interesting than Pogorelich. Fischer's technique struggles mightily making his third variation quite underwhelming, but from there he gets the serene mood perfectly right, and his tone is beautiful.

[Mandryka]

Sokolov I have some older recording, LP transfer I think. It's very good but I really have to be in the mood for it or my mind starts to wander off somewhere around second variation.
Pogorelich first, studio recording doesn't work for me, molto semplice e cantabile doesn't seem to be his forte.
I have the Lubimov, but same as you haven't listened to it yet.

Last two I listened were Edwin Fischer ('54 live) and Pletnev from Carnegie Hall. Pletnev also doesn't do molto semplice but is to me far more interesting than Pogorelich. Fischer's technique struggles mightily making his third variation quite underwhelming, but from there he gets the serene mood perfectly right, and his tone is beautiful.

That live EF is very dynamic -- I like it a lot.  I think  that Haskil was very moving in the theme to the arietta,  at 8'22 here

http://www.youtube.com/v/6deWQW9Ltcg


molto simplice? If you listen to Pogorelich in Athens you would think it's   adagio molto, semplice e cantabile not adagio,  molto semplice e cantabile 

[Drasko]

That live EF is very dynamic -- I like it a lot.  I think  that Haskil was very moving in the theme to the arietta,  at 8'22 here

Don't get me wrong I quite like that Edwin Fischer, not very technically secure but immensely beautiful. Not familiar with Haskil, will give it a spin later (wow, that guy gullivior has uploaded a lot of complete op.111s to youtube, something to check out over next few days).

molto simplice? If you listen to Pogorelich in Athens you would think it's   adagio molto, semplice e cantabile not adagio,  molto semplice e cantabile 

These days he plays even Mephisto Waltz pretty much adagio molto. Orbital (if you remember him, he used to post here) wrote very fine review of recent Pogorelich recital.

http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/17/pogorelich-plays-chopin-in-istanbul/ 

[jwinter]

Wow, Bill sighting! Haven't seen that square jaw in years. Passing in the night or you'll be sticking around? Good to see you post anyhow.

Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)

[George]

Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)

Glad to hear it Bill!

That's the trick, right? To stay in touch here without going broke. 

[Drasko]

Howdy bro!    I don't have the spare time or CD budget that I once had, so I don't know if I'll be around every day; but I plan to stick around.

Cheers,
Bill (JW)

That's perfectly fine. My budget isn't what it used to be as well, nor is the time. See you around bro.

[jwinter]

Glad to hear it Bill!

That's the trick, right? To stay in touch here without going broke. 

Yessir, that is indeed the trick    I happily did manage to pull together a fairly comprehensive (for my tastes) CD collection over the years, so now I'm planning to spend a lot more time focused on enjoying what I've got, rather than compiling an endless shopping list.  That way madness lies.

So as not to completely derail the thread, my current listening has been to the Op. 2 sonatas.  I've spun Eric Heisdieck, Claude Frank, and Alfred Brendel (digital set) over the past couple of days (so far I prefer Frank -- very clean, classical approach).  Who's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?

   

[George]

Yessir, that is indeed the trick    I happily did manage to pull together a fairly comprehensive (for my tastes) CD collection over the years, so now I'm planning to spend a lot more time focused on enjoying what I've got, rather than compiling an endless shopping list.  That way madness lies.

Definitely.

So as not to completely derail the thread, my current listening has been to the Op. 2 sonatas.  I've spun Eric Heisdieck, Claude Frank, and Alfred Brendel (digital set) over the past couple of days (so far I prefer Frank -- very clean, classical approach).  Who's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?

Gulda (Brilliant/Amadeo) for Op. 2 as a whole. I love his clean, perky style in these works. For just Op. 2/1 and 2/2, my vote goes to Schnabel for his forward momentum and exuberance and Annie Fischer for intensity and tempo selection. However, neither of them get Op. 2/3 right, IMO. 

Here's my current faves, in order, for Op. 2:

1. Op 2/1 – Fischer/Schnabel --- Gulda, Ciccolini, Kovacevich, Backhaus, Barenboim, Nat, Serkin, Goode , Richter (Live Moscow, 1979)

2. Op 2/2 – Fischer/Schnabel/Hungerford – Casadesus, Gulda, Goode, Gilels, Barenboim, Backhaus, Nat

3. Op 2/3 – Goode/Gulda – Gilels, Kempff(m), Backhaus, Barenboim, Solomon(Pearl) Kovacevich, Solomon, Nat

[Todd]

Who's your favorite pianist in these early works, and why?

From this thread.


2/1 – Fischer, Gulda, Pollini, Perahia, Schnabel

2/2 – Schnabel, Fischer, Gulda, Gulda (Orfeo), Hungerford

2/3 – Perahia, Fischer, Gulda, Backhaus, Brautigam


The pianists selected, Perahia excepted, generally play with a bit more heft or speed than usual, yet never lose sight of the more 'youthful' aspects of the sonatas, if you will.  (Okay, maybe Annie Fischer subjects the music to a heavy duty approach, but it works.)  Pollini is perhaps a bit of a surprise, but I really rather fancy his early LvB.  Perahia is his usual tonally mellifluous self, and keeps things a bit lighter.  Probably his best Beethoven to date that I've heard, though his 31/1 I heard in recital was also superb.