Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Lilas Pastia]

Right now listening with much pleasure to sonata 16 played with extraordinary insight by Eric Heidsieck. I must say this is maybe the first time I hear a trill ( in II) evoke such an Alice in Wonderland world of beauty and imagination. Pure delight. Of course that's Beethoven's doing. 14 minutes' long slow movement in a 26 minute work. It takes a great artist to enter such an emotional-intellectual vortex. I've long considered op. 31 to be the kernel of all Beethoven's sonata output - its centre of gravity so to speak. This is an aural testimony to something that was essentially instinctive so far.

[Lilas Pastia]

That's part of the controversy.  She recorded the complete 30.  She omitted two because they were published without Beethoven's authorization.

Interesting, really . What are the unauthorized two?

[kishnevi]

Sounds like Heidsieck is one that should be heard (at least while waiting for the rest of Guy and Lim to appear). 

As far as I can see, his cycle is out-of-print, with no abundance of used copies floating around.  However, the (also out-of-print, apparently) Beethoven box from EMI france is available from broinc.com for $50.

[asin]B000J0ZPH4[/asin]

It contains mostly EMI-france recordings of Beethoven's major works.  Cluytens symphonies, Hungarian Quartet, I've already pinched my copy, so have at it.

Maybe I'll make my first iTunes purchase ever and get that Lim set for $9.99.

Tried about ten different ways to find BRO's listing for that box with its search engine, and couldn't find it.  Can you tell me how to find it?   But I did notice the Heidseik set on its own is listed there for $39.92

[Fafner]

Interesting, really . What are the unauthorized two?

Op 49 (#19 and #20).  They were written before the official #1.  They were published by Beethoven's brother Casper against Ludwig's wishes.  I wish she would have recorded them, though, because I like them.

[Fafner]

Tried about ten different ways to find BRO's listing for that box with its search engine, and couldn't find it.  Can you tell me how to find it?   But I did notice the Heidseik set on its own is listed there for $39.92

I just searched for "Heidsieck" and it came up as the first of three items.

[kishnevi]

I just searched for "Heidsieck" and it came up as the first of three items.

Aha!  That did it.  Thank you.  Although it's odd that it didn't come up with any of the others attempts (including a search for every EMI Beethoven recording).

[Fafner]

Aha!  That did it.  Thank you.  Although it's odd that it didn't come up with any of the others attempts (including a search for every EMI Beethoven recording).

Maybe EMI and EMI France are separate labels in BRO.

[kishnevi]

Maybe EMI and EMI France are separate labels in BRO.

The advanced search doesn't offer EMI France as a separate option. 
I also tried Cluytens (since his symphonies are part of the set) and it didn't show. 

However, I found it and ordered it.  Thanks for your help.

[Fafner]

The advanced search doesn't offer EMI France as a separate option. 
I also tried Cluytens (since his symphonies are part of the set) and it didn't show. 

However, I found it and ordered it.  Thanks for your help.

Excellent.  The Cluytens cycle is also well worth having (I have them as separate discs and will be selling them off).  The Hungarian Quartet is also legendary, but mono.

[xochitl]

i just heard op31/2 with hj lim and was actually very impressed...maybe this is one of the 'few' good ones in the cycle? idk

on the other hand i couldn't continue the hammerklavier after 2 minutes without rolling my eyes

[Brian]

FYI, there are two high-def YouTube clips of HJ Lim playing Beethoven: Moonlight adagio and from Les adieux.

[kishnevi]

On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.

[Brian]

On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.

I was a little insulted with the insinuation that "young collectors" will like the set. I'm at least two years younger than HJ Lim is, though I don't advertise my age when writing for MW...

[kishnevi]

I was a little insulted with the insinuation that "young collectors" will like the set. I'm at least two years younger than HJ Lim is, though I don't advertise my age when writing for MW...

Ah, young you are in years, but old are you in the ways of the force.


I just took the phrase to mean tech savvy people who don't have that big a collection and may not have any other recordings of the Thirty Two--which would usually be people of your generation and not mine (let's just say I'm old enough to have children older than you, although I actually have no children at all.)

[jlaurson]

On MusicWeb today, http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Beethoven_sonatas_4649522.htm a sort of positive review of Lim's cycle, although even here at the end must come the admission that it's not really that great after all.

When have you ever seen a LvB Sonata set reviewed truly negatively? The reviewers always cop out and, "awed by the achievement" (look for that word in the review, which I've not yet red; it's sure to pop up) give a cowardly thumbs up. Especially when it's CD review amateur-hour. 

[The new erato]

A timely reminder here that the meaning of amateur is someone doing it for the love of it, as opposed to a professional doing it for money.

[jlaurson]

When have you ever seen a LvB Sonata set reviewed truly negatively? The reviewers always cop out and, "awed by the achievement" (look for that word in the review, which I've not yet red; it's sure to pop up) give a cowardly thumbs up. Especially when it's CD review amateur-hour. 

Oh yes! How right I was.  Best sentence of the paragraph I glimpsed at, though: "You may want to find someone who can tell you different things about those more mysterious and enigmatic passages - Schiff, or who has a thicker patina of life experience - an extra layer of introspection with which to temper the impetuosity which sometimes threatens to engulf some of Lim's sonata movements - Brendel."

Wow... where's the editor, when you need him? The whole thing is full of hedge-words (not committing to a feeling, either for lack of having one or out of cowardliness or laziness; i.e. why would one ever use the word "perhaps" in a sentence about one's own reaction to something?!) and unidiomatic expressions that should have been found out if little Sally Draper had had her essay on "My Car Trip Listening to Beethoven". That harms a review, even where the sentiment is right, or insight to be found.

After living with this set for a few weeks my general feelings regarding the 'vibe' of this collection are fairly positive, so let's have a few critical comments out of the way first. Even as a cycle without extras, a complete Beethoven sonatas set on 8 CDs would seem to be a bit tight. These are all well filled discs and speeds are swift, but Lim has missed out the sonatas No. 19 in G minor op. 49 no. 1 and No. 20 in G major op. 49 no. 2, stating "As the sonatas Op. 49 Nos. 1 and 2 were meant as exercises for students and published against the composer's will". HJ continues, "I have chosen to respect Beethoven's intentions by leaving them out of this great cycle." I don't know about you, but all this does is make me want to listen to the Op. 49 pair to remind myself of what I'm missing. If we all went around respecting the wishes of composers long dead there might, for instance, be mass withdrawals of ancient sacred music being used for profane purposes, and advertising execs would be more than merely bereft. Lim also adds that "I have organised the remaining sonatas by theme." This is another mildly controversial topic which I promise not to bore on about, at least not for too long. Many Beethoven sonata cycles are ordered pretty much chronologically, and mixing things up as they have been here is interesting and intriguing. If you look at the full track listing you will see the eight themes into which this set has been ordered, and I remain a touch resistant to having subjective associations applied in blanket fashion to individual works let alone whole clutches of sonatas. Yes, there are easy connections to be made, such as 'Nature' to the 'Pastoral' sonata, but the whole point in Beethoven's sonatas is that each one is a myriad cosmos of contrasting messages, the meanings of which will, or should be unique to the listener. Lim writes extensive notes for each album setting out her thoughts on the sonatas and these are usefully insightful, but even so giving a title like 'Heroic Ideals' to any set of these pieces would be like painting the Winged Victory of Samothrace bright red just because that's the way you happen to think its visual semantics are best expressed. I reserve the right to listen to this music without labels. Such titles point us in one direction and exclude too much, and my only real concern is that the new audiences attracted by this brave young star will be sent along too narrow a pathway when approaching these pieces.

The piano sound for this collection is, on a first superficial listen, perhaps not quite as immediate and stunning as one might expect from such a vibrantly profiled project. The acoustic plays a significant role in the general picture, which lends a chamber-music rather than a concert-hall feel to the music. Lim does however frequently play in concert-hall fashion, so the sonic message is a bit mixed. This is by no means to say that this is a poor production in terms of sound quality, but it is by no means the most pleasant piano sound I've heard. Lim plays on a Yamaha piano, which I am told are modelled somewhat on Steinway instruments. The reputed brightness you might expect is not extreme or annoying, though this is a piano with quite an effervescent character. Turn up the volume reasonably and you will be provided with plenty of detail, rich lows and a sparkling treble. Your ears and mind soon accept the realities of the sound, and there is no real problem if you are prepared to lean back and take what is given. Even the encroachment of a slightly tubby acoustic is better than a fatiguing overly-dry sound or too close-up perspective.

Argh.

A timely reminder here that the meaning of amateur is someone doing it for the love of it, as opposed to a professional doing it for money.

As a part-time amateur, I'm (painfully) aware of the meaning and connotations, but I think you idealize the difference when you describe it like that. The amateur does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but doesn't get paid for it. The professional does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but does get paid for it.
You could imply or assume that one is steered by love-of-the-thing-itself, and the other by greed, but that's no likely true. More likely true is that both love what they do, and one has -- through luck or ability or both -- managed to make others value his or her contributions enough to be paid for it.
In this case I wanted to point to another difference: The professional usually has an editor to content with, and certain quality controls have to be met... and is beset by a feeling of gratitude (i.e. towards having received a complete Beethoven Sonata set) that a professional wouldn't bother to feel.

[The new erato]

As an part-time amateur, I'm (painfully) aware of the meaning and connotations, but I think you idealize the difference when you describe it like that. The amateur does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but doesn't get paid for it. The professional does it for whatever his or her reasons are, but does get paid for it.
You could imply or assume that one is steered by love-of-the-thing-itself, and the other by greed, but that's no likely true. More likely true is that both love what they do, and one has -- through luck or ability or both -- managed to make others value his or her contributions enough to be paid for it.

I know. And I won't get the Lim set. But still I think there's a lot to be said for amateurish enthusiams; we've all been there and done that (mye love for classical music was awakened by Emerson, Lake and Palmer.....). And us "seasoned listeners" hardly pay much attention to more than a very few, well-understood reviewers anyway.

[Brian]

Oh yes! How right I was.  Best sentence of the paragraph I glimpsed at, though: "You may want to find someone who can tell you different things about those more mysterious and enigmatic passages - Schiff, or who has a thicker patina of life experience - an extra layer of introspection with which to temper the impetuosity which sometimes threatens to engulf some of Lim's sonata movements - Brendel."

Wow... where's the editor, when you need him? The whole thing is full of hedge-words (not committing to a feeling, either for lack of having one or out of cowardliness or laziness; i.e. why would one ever use the word "perhaps" in a sentence about one's own reaction to something?!) and unidiomatic expressions that should have been found out if little Sally Draper had had her essay on "My Car Trip Listening to Beethoven". That harms a review, even where the sentiment is right, or insight to be found.

You've written for MW... Rob generally does little more than insert links to other reviews and replace my semicolons with full stops. MusicWeb has a house style, very English I think, of being as polite as possible. I've learned how to read "through" the reviews to see what the CDs' merits really are; certain types of praise indicate dullness, certain types indicate willful oddity, and certain types indicate slipshod technique (usually the phrase "makes a noble effort" is involved). It's all very frustrating, and it goes back to the English culture's need to cut the crap and say what they really think - Gordon Ramsay doesn't have to write CD reviews, but he'd certainly be a change. Actually, he'd be Dave Hurwitz.

Anyway, Dominy Clements seems in this case to have actually liked a lot of the set; there's that bit about how he listens to it in the car for pleasure (I treat Gilels that way). But, maybe because I'm brash and young, or maybe because I'm Texan, I'm not gonna hold back. Luckily Len is used to my flame-throwing; he even once let me know he was going to defend me if I got in trouble for one of 'em. (The artist did... his publicist had him shut down his Twitter account for a year. Gulp.)

Yes, MW are amateurs, but few of the critics are genuine amateurs like me. A few are sometime conductors or otherwise genuine musicians/teachers - e.g., Carla Rees and Christopher Howell.

It has definitely been hard overcoming the issue of, "I'm really grateful to have gotten this CD for free so I'll be nice about it." I've learned to sample self-published or tiny-tiny-label discs before requesting to review them, because the psychological pressure of "aw Jane Flautist is going to be so sad when she reads this" is greater than it is with, say, EMI. Of course, the other way to get around that is simple - to be a good reviewer, and to write constructive criticism rather than destructive, the kind of thing where an artist will understand "he knew what I intended, at least." For an example of how a reviewer should not address the critic-artist relationship, it's hard to top this cannon-blast from the Hurwitzer.

[jlaurson]

You've written for MW...

Yes, I know the joint... which is one of the reasons I'm frustrated with it. And I don't think it's necessarily British, because the old editor at Seen & Heard was cut from a different cloth, altogether... not fuddy-duddy-anything-goes, but with a strict desire for quality. (Though it's a tough fight when you haven't got money to reward good 'behavior', as it were.)

Anyway, Dominy Clements seems in this case to have actually liked a lot of the set; there's that bit about how he listens to it in the car for pleasure (I treat Gilels that way). But, maybe because I'm brash and young, or maybe because I'm Texan, I'm not gonna hold back. Luckily Len is used to my flame-throwing; he even once let me know he was going to defend me if I got in trouble for one of 'em.

That's a great, well written opening paragraph!