Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

I'm just starting to explore this set so I was wondering if anyone else has got through the formidable sound challenge it presents, and if they've found any other special performances in there.

I've made it through the Ciani cycle a couple times.  I find his cycle to be sub-par musically as well as sonically.  There are some bright spots - Op 54 comes to mind - but on the whole, it's a miss.  I wrote about it on the old forum. 

How poor is the sound?

The sound is terrible, execrable.  I have heard nothing that is as bad as the Ciani cycle, not even acoustic recordings or Walter Klien's Brahms.  It was recorded by an audience member with a mono tape recorder.  There are some passages where the distortion buries everything else.

[George]

Thanks, Todd!

[Mandryka]

I've made it through the Ciani cycle a couple times.  I find his cycle to be sub-par musically as well as sonically.  There are some bright spots - Op 54 comes to mind - but on the whole, it's a miss.  I wrote about it on the old forum. 

Can you give a link to that -- I'm dying to know if you said anything about this pastoral that caught my attention.

There are worse things sound wise -- Furtwangler's Strauss four last songs for example, or Schnabel and Szigeti in Brahms. And loads of Sofronitsky. And like I say, you can hear what he's doing -- in a way that's what matters, we can use our imagination to compensate for the deficiencies, especially since one example (op 111) is well recorded and so we know pretty well what sort of sound he made.  But it may not be worth it musically -- it's hard for me to say. So far I've only found the one sonata which made me think.

[Todd]

Can you give a link to that -- I'm dying to know if you said anything about this pastoral that caught my attention.

Here. 

We could debate what does or does not sound worse, but this is easily the worst sounding complete LvB sonata cycle. As to using one's imagination to compensate for deficiencies, well, let's just say that's not at all how I listen.

[Mandryka]

Here. 

We could debate what does or does not sound worse, but this is easily the worst sounding complete LvB sonata cycle. As to using one's imagination to compensate for deficiencies, well, let's just say that's not at all how I listen.

It is the way I find myself listening. Strange -- I would have never thought I could listen like that, but I do. 

Thanks for the link.

[George]

It is the way I find myself listening. Strange -- I would have never thought I could listen like that, but I do. 

Thanks for the link.

I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.

[Brian]

I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.

I found Ciani's cycle on NML and went through a similar cognitive process. Like, I knew the sound was objectively bad, but I could hear past it way more easily than I expected. It was something like, "I know this is not how Ciani sounded, but I can guess how he sounded," not so much tonally (it's a nightmare that way) as about things like structure and force and the way he builds the piece dramatically. It may not report well on the pianist's sound but it reports well on, if this makes any sense, his artistic character.

[Scarpia]

I'm in the same boat, including being surprised.

I also find that 'imagining the performance that would have given rise to the recording I am listening to' is my default mode of listening.  That applies to surround sound SACDs as well as to transfers of 78rpm shellac disks.  Obviously former require less imagination than the latter, but that is a matter of degree.  But obtrusive noises create a greater distraction to me than poor technical quality of audio.

[Todd]

but I could hear past it way more easily than I expected.

That's the easy part.  Looks like I use the word "imagine" differently than most people here.  Adjusting to crappy sound is not imaginative.  There is still plenty else to listen for: dynamics, tempi, phrasing, etc.  Tone is often not even represented wholly accurately by recordings anyway.  No, when I see the word imagine, I think someone is filling in the gaps where Alfred Cortot dropped notes, or as would be pertinent here, would find Ciani's fast, dynamically wide ranging Allegro from Op 13 is emotionally intense rather than just intense.

[Mandryka]

I listened to his Op 109 but couldn't hear that it was a particularly special performance. I also listened to the first movement of the Hamerklavier and thought yes, it's fine.

And then I went to Op 2/2 and like wow . . . this is nice. As with the Pastoral  the style is impressive partly because of the enormous dynamic range and sudden mood changes -- this was there in the primo.  He can play very tender and quiet and he can play extremely loudly, but tonally it never sounded too percussive to me. The second movement was very good I thought -- not extremely philosophical or spiritual. The third movement was lovely and gentle and playful without being trivial  and the outburst in the 4th movement was memorable -- with streaks if lightning in the left hand and steady clear chords in the right.

There are rubato things going on in Op 2/2 which I hadn't noticed so much eleswhere. Not as intrusive as Heidsieck, and interesting.

Anyway these are all just impressions after a single listening so take them with a pinch of salt as always, but I'm happy to have this set -- by the way, it's just a very cheap amazon download.

In terms of sound Todd is probably right. I certainly haven't heard worse sounding Beethoven sonatas. But it's not as painful as, say, Sofronitsky's Moscow Conservatory CDs.  It helps to listen through good hifi == I don't think it's damaging the speakers.

I got it, by the way,  because I was so impressed by this Ciani CD, which I think has the best Noveletten I've ever heard, except maybe for Nat.

[George]

Anyway these are all just impressions after a single listening so take them with a pinch of salt as always, but I'm happy to have this set -- by the way, it's just a very cheap amazon download.

Currently only $17.98 - http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-L-Van-Sonatas-Complete/dp/B002SIHSM0/ref=sr_shvl_album_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1346362471&sr=301-4

[Holden]

If you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.

[asin]B00007E8QO[/asin]

The Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them. His rendition of Schumann's Op 17 is nearly as good as Fiorentino's. The only LvB on the disc is a good recording of the Diabelli's. I go back to these recordings often

[Todd]

If you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.

If hearing Ciani in good sound is a goal, the DG Debussy twofer fits the bill.  Not SOTA, and it has its limitations, but it may be a reasonably good approximation of what he sounded like.  Performance wise, well, he's not a top tier Debussy pianist for me.

The Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them.

Consider Michael Endres if you want some nice Weber.

[Brian]

Todd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.

[Todd]

Todd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.

Not yet, not enough time, but Op 57 is easily the best thing in the set.  There have been a number of good 57s lately (Takacs' come to mind, but also Stewart), and FFG's is arguably the best of the lot.  Just superb stuff.  Op 31 is very good, but not tip top, but there's more to it than that.  I've got some other LvB that I have not had time to write about (the rest of HJ Lim, Idil Biret, Stewart).  Maybe in the next couple weeks I can write in more detail.  I eagerly await volume 3, let me put it that way. 

[kishnevi]

speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"


There's also a little clip of her talking about the sonatas, if you care to listen (I didn't). And of course also a link to click if you want to buy (I didn't).
http://m.news.emihosting.com/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=fdd33545e302e26538

[Brian]

Thanks Todd. Stewart = Goodyear, or is there someone surnamed Stewart I'm forgetting?

speaking of this thread's favorite performer,  this just came across my email transom.

"Her chart topping debut is finally available as an 8-CD boxset!"
There's also a little clip of her talking about the sonatas, if you care to listen (I didn't). And of course also a link to click if you want to buy (I didn't).
http://m.news.emihosting.com/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=fdd33545e302e26538

1. She conducts??!?!?!
2. Teaser from my submitted and soon-to-appear MusicWeb review of Lim: "As soon as Lim arrives above forte she starts cavorting about like a hyperactive retriever."

[Mandryka]

If you want to hear Ciani in reasonably good sound try this set.

[asin]B00007E8QO[/asin]

The Weber PS had never really grabbed me until I heard Ciani play them. His rendition of Schumann's Op 17 is nearly as good as Fiorentino's. The only LvB on the disc is a good recording of the Diabelli's. I go back to these recordings often

The Op 62/1 (a Chopin nocturne) in that box is amazing, and I remember a good Liszt Etude too.

[Todd]

Thanks Todd. Stewart = Goodyear, or is there someone surnamed Stewart I'm forgetting?

Yep, I reversed the names.  My bad.

[Holden]

Todd, have you yet posted on FFG vol 2? I'm especially impressed by the Appassionata and all the "little" sonatas (notably Opp 49, 78, 79) but I could've used a liittle more extroversion in 31/3. All in all, more very good and very consistent playing.

Yes, Brian, the Appassionata is very good. I have better versions (Richter  - Moscow, Carnegie Hall and Gilels - Moscow '61) though I am happy to listen to this. I am listening to the Pastoral at the moment. It is one of my favourite LvB PS from both a performance and listening perspective. I prefer a more leisurely approach to this work than Guy gives it.

The two sonatas of Op 49 are indeed very good especially #19. Guy finds real character in this work instead of just playing the notes like many others do. This might now be my favourite version of this piece, supplanting Annie Fischer, but I'll need to go back and check.