Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Sergeant Rock]

And we all know why Sarge likes it.

A pianist who is both cute and deranged. What's not to like 

Sarge

[Ataraxia]

A pianist who is both cute and deranged. What's not to like 

You have a point.

[Todd]

I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas?

I have.  It's crap, plain and simple.  Brian understated how awful the cycle is.  It is a triumph of marketing and gimmickry over artistry.  I will say that Lim is distinctive, but that is not the same as good.

[Opus106]

Brian!...have you been taking lessons from the Hurwitzer? 

Sarge

My thought exactly, as I began reading it.

[Brian]

But he's listened to the whole cycle whereas you have stated that you haven't so I can't see the basis for any criticism of his review. I have listened to the whole cycle and basically agree with Brian. The credit Brian deserves is that he stuck with it and considering Lim's overall performance this would not have been easy.

Whoa whoa whoa, easy there, I skipped a couple of the sonatas I'm less familiar or don't "get" yet. For instance, the first two movements of Op 101 are still kind of a mystery to me. I consider it only fair to Lim actually: if I like a performance of a sonata I'm having a hard time absorbing, I'll be happy to say so, but if I dislike a performance of such a piece, I'd much rather blame my own ears. (Edited to clarify that I skipped very few of them in this way.)

Also I'm not sure I'd agree with David that she's mentally ill, although narcissism does qualify when it's carried to a certain extreme...

[Brian]

I have.  It's crap, plain and simple.  Brian understated how awful the cycle is.  It is a triumph of marketing and gimmickry over artistry.  I will say that Lim is distinctive, but that is not the same as good.

One thing I definitely talked about, more than any reviewer published so far, is the fact that her technique really is nowhere near as good as she thinks it is. Listening to spills and crashes like in the finale of Op 26 or indeed an omitted chord in Op 111, I kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.

[DavidRoss]

One thing I definitely talked about, more than any reviewer published so far, is the fact that her technique really is nowhere near as good as she thinks it is. Listening to spills and crashes like in the finale of Op 26 or indeed an omitted chord in Op 111, I kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.

Though she certainly plays some passages at blinding speed, there's much more to virtuosity than that...even if we're speaking only of technical virtuosity and not musicality.

And I didn't say that she's mentally ill, only that I wondered if she were. And not because of narcissism, but because of her "interpretive" choices that have nothing to do with the music and often undermine it, as when disrupting passages that should flow with sudden meaningless pauses then blistering loud unrhythmic banging. Not that narcissism isn't a mental illness, but I don't know enough about her to even tempt me to diagnose that as a significant character attribute, let alone one extreme enough in her case to quality as a personality disorder.

BTW, word is that the DSM V may delete narcissistic personality disorder. Is that because it's become so commonplace these days that it's now considered normal?

[Todd]

I kept wondering why nobody else was talking about the shoddiness of the actual playing and instead praising her in-truth-spotty virtuosity.

One main reason I can think of: She plays fast.  Fast is good.  Fast is imaginative.  Fast is profound.  Fast is serious.  Fast is exhilarating.  Etc.  She clearly is not capable of doing quite what she wants to do.  There are pianists who can and do play fast with nary a hint of a problem.  Stewart Goodyear, to mention another current cycle, is a perfect example.  Compare the opening to 106 from the two pianists and tell me who commands the piece.  Friedrich Gulda also comes to mind.  But look at the pianists who did not play quite so fast.  Serkin, Pollini, Gilels, Fischer, Kempff, Backhaus, Heidsieck (though he does play fast here and there), Barenboim, Sherman, etc, etc, etc do not play so fast.  All of them, along with literally dozens of others, are much better than Lim. 

Now, if you combine the über-seriousness of speed with Gouldian quirkiness, and the impetuousness of youth, and, well, you see, you've got yourself a serious artist in the making.  One who will plumb new depths.  One who will shed new light.  And so on. 

For me, Lim's cycle is in the same league as Anne Øland's in terms of overall quality, but that masks something else.  Øland strikes me as a more serious artist, just one who cannot pull off her ideas.  Lim strikes me as a youthful poseur, and one who cannot pull off her ideas.  I'd say she reminds me of Lang Lang, but truth be told, I've heard a couple concert broadcasts of Lang Lang where he actually offered more than high speed banging.  There have been other cycles I disliked, but I always wanted to hear the pianist in something else.  Anton Kuerti comes to mind.  Turns out his complete LvB sonata cycle is the only thing of his I don't like.  His Brahms is among the best on record.  His Schubert is superb.  And his more recent LvB recordings are much better.  (To be fair, Op 31/1 from his cycle is among the finest ever; Lim offers nothing even close to the best ever in anything.)  When I saw him in recital, he gave what amounted to a master class on the Diabellis before playing them.  And then he delivered a blockbuster performance.  I have no desire to hear anything else from Lim at this point.  Perhaps she can and will mature into a great artist.  I'll let others buy her discs and wait for a consensus to emerge before spending another penny on her recordings.

[Leo K.]

I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

I have the CD set, and when I first received it I did what I typically do when I encounter a new Beethoven  Sonata cycle, skipped ahead to my favorite movement of my favorite Sonata (the first movement of Op 101).   I found it marvelously done.  It is only a small part of the set, but I will say that it gave me more pleasure then Backhaus did, or Arrau in the same movement.   Then I navigated to the beginning, Op 2, No 1.  (Of course, finding these sonatas was a bit more challenging then usual because of HJ Lim's peculiar grouping of the Sonatas by Theme.)  The performance of the first Sonata was certainly rather provocative, given HJ Lim's tendency to indulge in abrupt tempo shifts and to take liberties with Beethoven's dynamic markings.  But the first movement was uniquely bracing, the second suitably tender, the third what I would have expected.  Only the finale seemed to suffer from Lim's overindulgence, so that at times it seemed that the stuffing threatened to come out.  I am looking forward to making my way through the rest of the set, and expect a similar experience - boldly provocative, more successful in some places than in others.  What's the point of going into the studio to record these works, of which there are hundreds of versions for sale, if you are not going to do something distinctive?

To come back to the review, I don't think it does it's author any credit.

I am listening to this set, and definitely find it my cup of tea. It is very enjoyable to say the least.

The sound quality is very fine and detailed, with just the right amount of air and room space. The performance is bold and full of will.

The negative reviews here made me expect something totally different, but it's not that shocking, it's beautiful and direct.

[jlaurson]

I wonder how many people who are so gleefully cheering Brian's excoriation of HJ Lim have actually listened to her recordings of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas? 

Although if you listen just to op.106 (as I have... or am, right now), which is a train-wreck, you could see how it's tempting to follow suit. No?

[Opus106]

It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]

[DavidRoss]

It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

Cool. I have the first incarnation and always enjoy listening to it. Buchbinder's more classically restrained and less flamboyantly "interpretive" than some others. Perhaps this second re-issuing of his cycle suggests that there's continuing interest in his approach to the 32...?

Note: it's probably just as wise for Teldec not to picture Rudy on the cover as it is clever of her company to feature HJ Lim's glamour shots!

[Todd]

It's coming back.

Excellent.  Added to my cart.

[trung224]

May GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?

[asin]B00005NW0G[/asin]

Thanks
trung224

[Todd]

May GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?

Very good overall, with one of the best Op 110s out there to my ears.  Gieseking is swift and effortless, if not the most profound.

[trung224]

Very good overall, with one of the best Op 110s out there to my ears.  Gieseking is swift and effortless, if not the most profound.

Many thanks, Todd

[Mandryka]

I agree with Todd about Gieseking's Op 110. It's fun.

Someone's put a Heidsieck recital from Uraguay in the 1970s on symphonyshare. It's very good. Even if you've given up on his Beethoven you should try this -- it's in a completely different league from the studio records. No intrusive rubato, and he's much much more spontaneous and involved. We need more live Heidsieck I think.

[Coopmv]

It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]

This is probably the last Beethoven Sonatas set I would like to add to my collection ...

[Mandryka]

May GMGer give me the opinion about this performance ?

[asin]B00005NW0G[/asin]

Thanks
trung224

Your post prompted me to listen to more of his EMI Beethoven, which I managed to find on an excellent japanese transfer here:



Some of this set is very routine I would say. But I thought there was enough in there of exceptional musical interest to make me very glad to have given it the time. We've talked about the Op 109 before here. Apart from that I'd single out Op 10/1 as very nice (I liked all his Op 10s in fact), and Op 31/3. That makes three or may be five excellent, distinctive performances out of 23 -- not a bad score compared with some boxed sets.

The style is full of the joy of life, and  he can certainly be muscular when he feels so inclined. Apart from the smiling joyfulness of it, there's a sort of cuteness to the best of the performances which I think is very distinctive and which I find completely engaging.

If you search the web you'll find very little positive said about his EMI Beethoven.

[Gurn Blanston]

It's coming back. [EDIT: It's back already. Released 10 Sept. in the UK.]

[asin]B008DBID4I[/asin]

What date range for the original release(s) of these cd's/lp's?  Buchbinder is new to me, but may be something I could like (if not from the 1920's or '30's).