Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[The new erato]

I rather liked the moniker Baroque Obama.

[Que]

I rather liked the moniker Baroque Obama.

Me too.    Though whining about Schnabel's Beethoven did not quite match.

Q

[Mandryka]

I've had a brief discussion about this privately and it seems that one thing that Baroque Obama was interested in is the way Schnabel plays the  final movement of op 111, you know the way he takes the arietta so very slowly and then changes the pulse frequently within and among the variations. This may be an example of putting artistry before musicality, of  "[ignoring] Beethoven's directives" Badura Skoda also changes the pulse, following Schnabel's example (he says, I haven't checked.)

I knew that this practice is pretty widespread and in my head I'd always associated it with Schnabel.  One thing I'll follow up is the thought that only three recorded performances play op 111/ii with a steady pulse (more or less) -- Buchbinder, Rosen (I can't find my CD, annoyingly. And anyway I think he recorded it more than once, as did Buchbinder.) And Jacob Lateiner, who I know nothing about.

It'll be interesting to just check what so called HIP pianists do. Beghin, for example.

Oh, and I'll use this board to thank Rambaldi for sending me a PM.

[aquablob]

Just to add to what Mandryka is talking about, we discussed this topic back on p. 126 of this thread, where we brought up Robert Winter's essay that compares recordings of Op. 111 in terms of tempo fluctuation between variations. Read from the bottom of page 41 through page 46 here if you're interested: http://books.google.com/books?id=rfESTJIEYaUC&pg=PA41

[Cosi bel do]

Are you talking about the stereo recordings or the mono or both ?

Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever. This just irritates me. I still try sometimes. I just did, I listened to the first couple minutes of the Waldstein sonata before I changed to Serkin in the same music, just to clean my ears.
And this is not only in Beethoven, Kempff is just as bad anywhere (Schubert for instance).

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

[Cosi bel do]

I wonder what words Cosi bel do would use to describe HJ Lim, if he heard her.

I did. My word would be : lol

[Brian]

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

Waldstein or Op. 109 or maybe Op. 110? I was thinking about Op. 109. I also wonder if you would like to have me co-host the game, because I feel like you have all the "classic" recordings, whereas I have probably a half-dozen interesting recordings from the last 10-15 years, and our collections may have so little overlap that between us we could achieve a good diversity.

[amw]

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

101 or 106 or 109. (Although in 106 I'd probably just vote for whoever played the first movement closest to Beethoven's metronome mark. If it was supposed to be Allegro grandioso e largamente, half note = 76, he would have said so.)

[mc ukrneal]

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

I think you said you already did 109 (which would have been my first choice), so then it would be either Op 110 or Waldstein I think.

[Mookalafalas]

Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever.

  I like Kempff a lot, but freely confess I'm an absolute amateur and could be easily fooled. Still, I find this hard to believe.  Brendel and others speak very highly of Kempff. Or perhaps you would say the same about Brendel?

[Mandryka]

Both. Kempff is a little better in his earlier mono set, but anyway he is never more than a fair amateur pianist, at his best. I do not understand what (so many (but less and less)) people find so alluring in his playing. I just hear bad articulation, confused phrasing, and a total absence of a line, a speech, any architecture whatsoever. This just irritates me. I still try sometimes. I just did, I listened to the first couple minutes of the Waldstein sonata before I changed to Serkin in the same music, just to clean my ears.
And this is not only in Beethoven, Kempff is just as bad anywhere (Schubert for instance).

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

So,let's take this  op 53/i. I'd quite like to dig a bit deeper into what you're hearing. If you have the time, can you spell it out - I have the recordings so you can refer to timings?

For what it's worth, some of the sonatas that I can remember enjoying from Kempff (mono) are  2/2, 7, 27/1, 26, 28, 49, 54, 78, 81a, 90, 101, 106, 110, 111.

[Mandryka]

In a way you may be right, because Kempff is first and foremost a great musician. If he had chosen to play organ, violoncello or whatever instead of piano, I am sure, that he would have become a great musician on that instrument.

I can't resist asking you whether you enjoy his Goldberg Variations. I've always wondered why he took that approach to ornamentation there - he's more conventional in WTC (which I like less I think)

[jlaurson]

Long out of print, this complete set of Beethoven's Piano sonatas by pianist / composer Michaël Levinas is back in the catalogue. It seems to be much cheaper in Europe (€35 at amazon.es) than in America ($124 at amazon.com, and "temporarily out of stock" to boot)...


Ludwig van Beethoven: 32 piano sonatas - Michaël Levinas (9 Cd's, Adès)

Of Levinas' Beethoven, I only know the Mondschein, the Waldstein, the Appassionata and the Hammerklavier (which are included in an interesting 11-CD set called "Double Face" that covers Levinas' activity both as composer and pianist).

I find Levinas' Beethoven quite convincing (not that I'm an expert, by any means  ), and was particularly impressed by his Waldstein...

Splendid. Thanks so much for the information. Already integrated: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html

Cheers,
jfl

[Mandryka]

By the way, if I was to organize a blind comparison on a sonata, which one would you like (speaking to all potential future participants) ? Waldstein ? Les Adieux ? Another one ?

Op 111, or maybe just op 111/ii

Do you know about this one?

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4858-ecoute-comparee-de-la-sonate-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

with a summary of the results here

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4907-beethoven-sonate-n32-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

We could do it much better if there were enough interested people because we'd have access to many more interesting performances. HIP ones, unpublished ones, hard to find ones etc.

[Cosi bel do]

Yes I know the 2 comparisons on op. 109 and 111 that had been done on Classik. I do not follow exactly the same method, but still I wouldn't do one myself, I think it would be better to explore a different sonata. And the results are still valid in my opinion, the rare Edwin Fischer reading of op. 111 is still among my very top favourites and it is a shame it is not more widely known.

I also don't think I would do a comparison on op. 110, on Hammerklavier. Even on Waldstein I have doubts. I think a comparison could be more interesting on a sonata not everyone knows, and that even fierce Beethovenians don't listen to very often. It would allow versions to be heard with less prejudices from everyone, and might (partly) avoid different versions to be easily recognized.
amw's proposal of op. 101 is quite interesting. Anyway I'll think about it when the Mahler 2 listening ends, so maybe a Beethoven comparison this summer (if I have time...)

[Cosi bel do]

  I like Kempff a lot, but freely confess I'm an absolute amateur and could be easily fooled. Still, I find this hard to believe.  Brendel and others speak very highly of Kempff. Or perhaps you would say the same about Brendel?

Not the same exactly. Brendel is just uninteresting. His playing is neat. I just don't care about Brendel. He is one of the most forgettable pianist there are.

[Cosi bel do]

So,let's take this  op 53/i. I'd quite like to dig a bit deeper into what you're hearing. If you have the time, can you spell it out - I have the recordings so you can refer to timings?

For what it's worth, some of the sonatas that I can remember enjoying from Kempff (mono) are  2/2, 7, 27/1, 26, 28, 49, 54, 78, 81a, 90, 101, 106, 110, 111.

Well, this is less a problem of what I'm hearing that of what I'm not. To be clear, I'm not that concerned by technical difficulties, wrong notes, etc., that can be found even in Richter best performances. The problem is that Kempff is not precise, there is a lack of structure, of rythmic clarity. Just listen to the first minute of his Waldstein and compare to any good pianist, Serkin, Richter, Gilels, Grinberg, Schnabel, Gieseking, Lupu (not all are my favourites in this sonata, but all are giving a faitful reading), really anyone (I even like Cziffra in the Waldstein !).
To take another example, Nat is not at all the more precise, but you never feel that he loses his footing. This is the case with Kempff.
If you don't hear the big difference then, I don't know what to say, maybe we simply don't have the same perception of this music...

[prémont]

I can't resist asking you whether you enjoy his Goldberg Variations. I've always wondered why he took that approach to ornamentation there - he's more conventional in WTC (which I like less I think)

I have not heard Kempff´s DG recording of the Goldberg variations, but around the time of the recording I attended a recital, Kempff playing the Goldberg variations. To be fair I did not like his interpretation. Too smooth and sweet, too few contrasts, too much use of sustaining pedal. I would not call his view romantic, but just dull. But this does not prevent me from considering him a great musician with a special affinity to Beethoven and Brahms.

[Todd]

Miss one day, and look at all the posts.  And Rambaldi left, after making sure to go on about the word bigot.  Haven't seen someone go on about that word since David Ross.  A coincidence, I'm sure.

Todd, the Houstoun set is available here

http://www.43.co.nz/brands/Trust-Records.html

The price is indeed a bit high, but I have the MP3s of the late sonatas, and at some point I have to get the rest of the set.  What I've heard shows promise.

Listening to the new Maria Perrotta album now. I don't know who Maria Perrotta is, but with Op. 109 just finished and Op. 110 starting, she's striking me as a modern-instrument (Steinway) Penelope Crawford

Now that's intriguing.

*EDIT*

[Cosi bel do]

Op 111, or maybe just op 111/ii

Do you know about this one?

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4858-ecoute-comparee-de-la-sonate-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

with a summary of the results here

http://classik.forumactif.com/t4907-beethoven-sonate-n32-opus-111?highlight=beethoven

We could do it much better if there were enough interested people because we'd have access to many more interesting performances. HIP ones, unpublished ones, hard to find ones etc.

I've been thinking... And opus 22 could also be a great candidate for a blind comparison.