Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

The Japan issue sounds better, as it has more high frequency information.

Dammit, you were suppose to write that they sound the same.  I don't want to spend $90 bucks to replace my current set . . .

[George]

Dammit, you were suppose to write that they sound the same.  I don't want to spend $90 bucks to replace my current set . . .

Haha! It's not a night a day difference. I'd say if you think the Italian set sounds muffled, get the Japanese one. If it doesn't, don't bother.

[DavidA]

A great set of which I have acquired most second hand is by the Hungarian great Annie Fischer. Wonderfully poetic performances.

[prémont]

Haha! It's not a night a day difference. I'd say if you think the Italian set sounds muffled, get the Japanese one. If it doesn't, don't bother.

Being in Todd´s situation, I shall take this ad notam and save my money for something else.

[George]

Being in Todd´s situation, I shall take this ad notam and save my money for something else.

Wise man. If I were as rational as you, I'd have a nice savings account right now. 

[jlaurson]

Serkin Question:

Does anyone know to what extent this box:


Rudolf Serkin plays Beethoven concertos, sonatas & variations


...duplicates this box:


Serkin Unreleased Studio Recordings

?

I've read a review that sonatas Nos. 1, 6, 12, 13 "Sonata quasi una fantasia" and 16 from this set were, in fact, new to the Serkin discography... which suggests that they have all been taken on into the new set... as has 110, which shows up in two versions on the new box. But the rest (Nos. 6, 21 (Waldstein), 30, and 32) do not... which means what?

[Jo498]

I cannot double check this because the newish (spartan) box is all I have but on this new box it says october 1970 for op.10/2, december 1962 for op.13, september 1975 for op.53, March 1967 for op.111 and  june 1976 for op.109

I certainly would have preferred alternative versions for some of the sonatas (as far as they exist, there is also a mono op.13 e.g.) to two versions of the choral fantasia (one of which I already had) and the triple concerto...

[jlaurson]

I cannot double check this because the newish (spartan) box is all I have but on this new box it says october 1970 for op.10/2, december 1962 for op.13, september 1975 for op.53, March 1967 for op.111 and  june 1976 for op.109

I certainly would have preferred alternative versions for some of the sonatas (as far as they exist, there is also a mono op.13 e.g.) to two versions of the choral fantasia (one of which I already had) and the triple concerto...

I know that the new, bare-bones set has excluded mono-versions wherever a stereo re-make existed... which I believe is *every* incidence. But if/where two stereo-remakes existed, I don't know if they put both on (such as with op.110) and that therefore it goes to reason that every recording that was in stereo on the "Unpublished" set is necessarily included on this set, too, or not.

Meanwhile, thanks much for your information which will be greatly helpful if we now can have someone compare those dates with the dates on their "Unpublished" set.

[George]

I know that the new, bare-bones set has excluded mono-versions wherever a stereo re-make existed... which I believe is *every* incidence. But if/where two stereo-remakes existed, I don't know if they put both on (such as with op.110) and that therefore it goes to reason that every recording that was in stereo on the "Unpublished" set is necessarily included on this set, too, or not.

Meanwhile, thanks much for your information which will be greatly helpful if we now can have someone compare those dates with the dates on their "Unpublished" set.

Serkin - The Unreleased Studio Recordings
- Except where noted, all sonatas were recorded at Columbia Records 30th Street Studio, New York City.
- Those sonatas with an asterisk were new to the Serkin discography when this set came out in 1994.

Op. 2/1 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 10/2 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 26 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 27/1 - December 7, 1970 *
Op. 31/1 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 53 - September 24-26, 1975 (recorded at Guilford, Vermont)
Op. 109 - June 8, 1976
Op. 110 - August 28, 1960 (recorded at Marlboro, Vermont (and the best Op. 110 I have ever heard))
Op. 111 - March 15-16, 1967

[jlaurson]

Serkin - The Unreleased Studio Recordings
- Except where noted, all sonatas were recorded at Columbia Records 30th Street Studio, New York City.
- Those sonatas with an asterisk were new to the Serkin discography when this set came out in 1994.

Op. 2/1 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 10/2 - October 7, 1970 *
Op. 26 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 27/1 - December 7, 1970 *
Op. 31/1 - December 8, 1970 *
Op. 53 - September 24-26, 1975 (recorded at Guilford, Vermont)
Op. 109 - June 8, 1976
Op. 110 - August 28, 1960 (recorded at Marlboro, Vermont (and the best Op. 110 I have ever heard))
Op. 111 - March 15-16, 1967

THANKS MUCH. I've since been able to determine that in fact all of these takes were put in the latest and the second-to-last (White "Columbia") Serkin LvB Sonata Collection. Allegedly the sound processing on the Masters boxes is crap, but I haven't got it. The set above, I think I've got... but I've been separated from it for a decade.  It's somewhere in a garage in Virginia.

Meanwhile I've been busy at work with the 11th (!) installment of the Beethoven Survey!




Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
The Great Incomplete Cycles


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html

Which ones have I missed? What data did I get wrong?

[Jo498]

I have not even listened through he whole Serkin box and I gave away the two single discs (Diabellis+ Bagatelles and an "Esprit" with some early sonatas) I had before. But I am pretty sure that they did not do any remastering and just took the newest remasterings they had anyway, put them on discs and those in a bare bones cardboard box.

As you mention Gould in the survey, the best way there is probably to get the "white" Gould edition Sony boxes which are two volumes, and two more for concertos and variations/bagatelles. I do not have the op.106/78 separate disc but I heard it years ago before it was officially released on pirate disc and then again at a friend's and I think this is skippable.
Gould's best Beethoven in my opinion are the concerti 1+2 (among my favorites ever and 3+4 are not too bad either), the variations (again my favorites of these works) and bagatelles and op.10 and op.31, despite some crazy tempi. (There are crazy tempi and mannerisms elsewhere but they do not always work so well.)

BTW the first piano concerto with Gould is conducted by Golschmann, not Bernstein.

[jlaurson]

As you mention Gould in the survey, the best way there is probably to get the "white" Gould edition Sony boxes which are two volumes...

Is there an advantage of those over the newer six-disc box?

[George]

THANKS MUCH. I've since been able to determine that in fact all of these takes were put in the latest and the second-to-last (White "Columbia") Serkin LvB Sonata Collection.

Actually, the white box omits the (IMO preferable) 1960 Op. 110

[Jo498]

Is there an advantage of those over the newer six-disc box?

Probably not. I had simply forgotten about the newer box. It might save space.

As some of the "Columbia" CDs sound rather bad it is usually better to go at least for the "white" Gould edition or newer. I do not know if newer boxes have different remastering, there are so many Gould editions that probably nobody knows... I have a few singles (e.g. Beethoven bagatelles) on newer discs (with the original LP covers) but mostly the white ones. The only "Columbia" I have is the WTK (because all of it on 3 disc instead two separate volumes), the Mozart sonatas (because I got them used rather cheaply) and the Beethoven variations (for sentimental reasons as this was probably among the first 20-30 CDs I bought as a teenager).

Like the WTK some of the Columbia discs do have more convenient packaging (e.g. all French Suites on one disc).

[kishnevi]

The 11 CD RS Plays B Sony budget box released in 2012 uses all the performances in the Unpublished box, plus  a 1971 performance of Op. 110.  The only other duplication involves PC4.

What set is the White Box?

( will cross post this to the Serkin thread)

[jlaurson]

The 11 CD RS Plays B Sony budget box released in 2012 uses all the performances in the Unpublished box, plus  a 1971 performance of Op. 110.  The only other duplication involves PC4.

What set is the White Box?

( will cross post this to the Serkin thread)

The "Columbia Legends" box. (As listed in the "Survey" piece, if you care to take a look.)

[George]

Meanwhile I've been busy at work with the 11th (!) installment of the Beethoven Survey!




Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
The Great Incomplete Cycles


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html

Which ones have I missed? What data did I get wrong?

Arrau "0" actually contains 11 sonatas. For EMI from 1947-1960 Arrau recorded Beethoven sonatas number 7(twice
'51 & '57), 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31 and 32. 7 (1957) and 24 are included in the ICON box.

The EMI recordings were intended to be a set, until Arrau was dropped by EMI. 

[jlaurson]

Arrau "0" actually contains 11 sonatas. For EMI from 1947-1960 Arrau recorded Beethoven sonatas number 7(twice
'51 & '57), 14, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31 and 32. 7 (1957) and 24 are included in the ICON box.

The EMI recordings were intended to be a set, until Arrau was dropped by EMI.

Bawk bawk BAAAAWK?!?!?!

My set has LIED to me?

Only "Nos. 7 & 24" are included in the Icon-Box? Or 7 & 24 are ONLY included in the Icon Box? (Ah, I see: The two that I am missing in my "Beethoven Edition Set" are on Icon.
Strange, not to have included them in that older set.

Will amend!

Still, there's no more complete a set, for now, of his HMV Beethoven, than the one I listed, right?


OH... now I see entirely. Both sets contain NINE sonatas, and both sets contain two sonatas that the other DOESN'T contain.

Who makes such decisions?

[George]

Only "Nos. 7 & 24" are included in the Icon-Box? Or 7 & 24 are ONLY included in the Icon Box? (Ah, I see: The two that I am missing in my "Beethoven Edition Set" are on Icon.)

Correct.

Strange, not to have included them in that older set.

Agreed. Also strange is that the ICON set omits Arrau's EMI recordings of sonatas 14 and 18, found in the earlier EMI set. So if one wants the entire EMI set, they need to track down both sets.

Then there's Arrau's Waldstein and Les Adieux recordings made in 1947 and 1949 for Columbia, from a box set released on United Archives and titled The Birth Of A Legend.

Still, there's no more complete a set, for now, of his HMV Beethoven, than the one I listed, right?

Correct.

[George]

Arrau also recorded sonatas 8, 14, 23, 26 and 29 for American Decca in 1954. These were released as part of The Liszt Legacy on DG.