Composers and politics/ethics

[Artem]

How do feel about composers/performers that promote political/ethical stances that you're against? Quick examples woulf be Wagner or Gergiev.

Or, for example, yesterday, I was searching through a selection of cds by a French composer. However, after reading on wikipedia (maybe not the best source) that he was supportive of the German occupying forces in his country, I didn't feel like listening to him any longer. Is that silly?

[Sammy]

I think it's a personal decision to make.  For me, it's the music that counts.  However, I well understand that a person might find a musician's views so abhorrent that he/she wants nothing to do with that musician.

[Todd]

Artists' political and ethical views are of basically no importance to me. 

[Ken B]

Artists' political and ethical views are of basically no importance to me.

Ditto. One of my favourite writers is Dashiell Hammett and he was a horror.
I can think of several composers I'd loathe as human beings, but I like their music.
Besides, I believe in the right to be wrong, which most people exercise most of the time.

[Mandryka]

When I listen to Mengelberg play Bach or  Cortot play Chopin I always think - there's a Nazi shit making beautiful poetry. That thought makes the experience of listening to them infinitely more enriching than it would have been had I have been unaware of their political inclinations. It reminds me that human nature is very complex, more complex than I understand.

There's a danger that we demonise evil, make it a thing apart, an inhuman thing. That's what Hollywood does, or did.  Knowing about the life and art of evil great poets is an antidote to this tendency to oversimplify.

[some guy]

There's a danger that we demonise evil....

Demonise evil, eh? Um, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that evil is already demonic. Kinda like sullying the sewer, maybe.

[Mandryka]

Demonise evil, eh? Um, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that evil is already demonic. Kinda like sullying the sewer, maybe.

When you demonise it's like making a caricature, a cartoon caricature. It makes the bad stuff safely "other."

[snyprrr]

Thread Lock in 5... 4... 3...

Artists' political and ethical views are of basically no importance to me. 

TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT



BANE HIM GOOD!!

[North Star]

Demonise evil, eh? Um, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that evil is already demonic. Kinda like sullying the sewer, maybe.

No. Evil is human.

[Octave]

One of my favourite writers is Dashiell Hammett and he was a horror.

Off-topic: how was he a 'horror'?  I only know his life in gloss, but aside from being duped into naive isolationism by CP devotion, didn't Hammett display some notable courage?  E.g. scrambling to make up for his myopia by joining the war effort in spite of compromised health, resisting HUAC bullying, etc.  'Courage' might be overstating it, but he did seem to court personal inconvenience in both taking stands and abandoning them.  His later years seem to be a foundering in disillusion and wrecked health, which is discouraging.
I'm interested in reading a bio some day, but the description of him as a 'horror' is surprising.

[Florestan]

Off-topic: how was he a 'horror'? 

I too would like to know the answer. He was a Communist, but this doesn't automatically qualifies him as "a horror".

[Philo]

I only care if some of my cash is being used to prop up their idiocy so, for example, I wouldn't purchase any of Gergiev's music.

[Florestan]

I only care if some of my cash is being used to prop up their idiocy so, for example, I wouldn't purchase any of Gergiev's music.

You made me curious: how is your cash used to prop up Gergiev?

[Ken B]

Off-topic: how was he a 'horror'?  I only know his life in gloss, but aside from being duped into naive isolationism by CP devotion, didn't Hammett display some notable courage?  E.g. scrambling to make up for his myopia by joining the war effort in spite of compromised health, resisting HUAC bullying, etc.  'Courage' might be overstating it, but he did seem to court personal inconvenience in both taking stands and abandoning them.  His later years seem to be a foundering in disillusion and wrecked health, which is discouraging.
I'm interested in reading a bio some day, but the description of him as a 'horror' is surprising.

During the period when Stalin and Hitler were co-operating Hammett gave public speeches against Lend-Lease and for isolationism that could have been from America Firsters. He defended the Soviet carve up of Poland and attacks on Finland.

[kishnevi]

During the period when Stalin and Hitler were co-operating Hammett gave public speeches against Lend-Lease and for isolationism that could have been from America Firsters. He defended the Soviet carve up of Poland and attacks on Finland.

That sounds like adhering to what was then the current CP line,  not especially horrorific.  Defending Stalin's purges and gulags would qualify.  Did he do that?

Personally, the only red line I have is to avoid recordings made under Nazi rule, whether in Germany and Austria, or during Nazi occupation.  Which is why, for instance,  I don't have and don't wish to get Furtwangler's war era recordings, no matter what artistic merit they are said to have.

And co-operation with the Nazi regime would color my opinion of a composer or performer,  but fortunately I don't keep track of which artist did what back then, outside of those mentioned as actually leaving/fleeing Nazi rule.   And with performers,  I probably wouldn't have much of their recordings anyway because I'm not a fan of "historical" performers. 

Or, for example, yesterday, I was searching through a selection of cds by a French composer. However, after reading on wikipedia (maybe not the best source) that he was supportive of the German occupying forces in his country, I didn't feel like listening to him any longer. Is that silly?

Read something similar to that about Messiaen the other day.  However, I'm not overenthusiastic about his music to begin with,  so that instance of more of an academic question for me rather than a practical one.

[North Star]

Read something similar to that about Messiaen the other day.  However, I'm not overenthusiastic about his music to begin with,  so that instance of more of an academic question for me rather than a practical one.

Really? He was captured and sent to a POW camp in 1940 by the Germans, where he composed the Quoatuor pour la fin du temps. I haven't seen any mention of him supporting Wehrmacht's presence in France.

[Todd]

Really? He was captured and sent to a POW camp in 1940 by the Germans, where he composed the Quoatuor pour la fin du temps. I haven't seen any mention of him supporting Wehrmacht's presence in France.

Here's one article including some info on Quartet for the End of Time, and here's another, with a bit more on Messiaen and his involvement with the Vichy regime.  Interpret how you like.

[Ken B]

Here's one article including some info on Quartet for the End of Time, and here's another, with a bit more on Messiaen and his involvement with the Vichy regime.  Interpret how you like.

"Among the works Messiaen composed in this period are Visions de l'Amen, Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine and Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus." Together with the QET, that's all my favourite Messiaen.

[kishnevi]

Really? He was captured and sent to a POW camp in 1940 by the Germans, where he composed the Quoatuor pour la fin du temps. I haven't seen any mention of him supporting Wehrmacht's presence in France.

I can't find the quote now (I could have  sworn it was here on GMG, but I a search is revealing nothing),  but it alleged
1)--the ability to compose and get Quatour composed in POW camp came about because of favoritism from the Germans running the camp
2)--after release from POW camp, he went home, made himself comfortable at the Conservatoire, and seemed to be quite comfortable with the Vichy regime,  There was a specific reference to antiSemitism.

Mind you,  this was an offhand comment, with no documentation, but the context would not have called for documentation,  but that's the only thing I could think of that matched what Artem described in the post that opened this thread.

I'm not keen on Messiaen to begin with, and if I don't listen to him it's because I'm not keen on the music, extramusical matters being irrelevant to my not being keen on the music.

(As I go to post,  I see Todd has supplied some actual facts.)

[North Star]

Here's one article including some info on Quartet for the End of Time, and here's another, with a bit more on Messiaen and his involvement with the Vichy regime.  Interpret how you like.

Thanks!