Harnoncourt: Bruckner's 7th

[Steve]

At the moment, I only have two recordings of this incredible symphony: Jochum and Karajan. After reading some rather interesting reviews online, I'm considering adding another to the collection. Any comments on this one?

[mahlertitan]

At the moment, I only have two recordings of this incredible symphony: Jochum and Karajan. After reading some rather interesting reviews online, I'm considering adding another to the collection. Any comments on this one?

May i ask which Jochum and Which karajan? both made multiple recordings of the symphony.

as for the Harnoncourt recording, the only Bruckner i heard from him was the 9th.

[Steve]

This Karajan Disc



And the performance from the complete Symphonies, Jochum 



I, too have heard that recording of the Ninth. Wasn't exactly spectacular...

[mahlertitan]

This Karajan Disc



And the performance from the complete Symphonies, Jochum 



I, too have heard that recording of the Ninth. Wasn't exactly spectacular...

- if you are interested in new interpretations, crisp sound, i would recommend Schuricht (concert hall recording of the 7th).
- Karajan's last recording of the 7th, the very last 7th that he made is also very high on my list, but since you have the EMI one, you might want something different.
- I haven't had the fortune to hear Giulini's 7th, but i would place that at a higher priority than any recording by Harnoncourt.

I am not on my main computer right now, i will give you more detailed advice once i gain access to my main collection.

[Iago]

Karajans recordings of the Bruckner 7th and 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic are much more satisfying than his recordings of that music with the Berlin Philharmonic.

First of all the VPO discs stem from more recent years and are in far better sound and generally better recorded. I never thought that EMI recorded K/BPO correctly. DG did a much better job with K/VPO.

Secondly, the sound of the VPO brass in this music is superb and unique. And IMO cannot be outdone by even so estimable an ensemble as the BPO.

[mahlertitan]

Okay, here are some performances that i Liked.


Bruno Walter's 7th with CSO

Eugen Jochum with WP a live recording in 1974 - the sound quality is not ideal though

Gunter Wand with BP also live

[hautbois]

No one seems to be answering Steve's question, and to further complicate things, i am also considering that Bruckner 7th, and also his 4th with the same orchestra:

No comments at all?

Howard

[mahlertitan]

No one seems to be answering Steve's question, and to further complicate things, i am also considering that Bruckner 7th, and also his 4th with the same orchestra:

No comments at all?

Howard

it never occurred to me that he was an extraordinary interpretor of Bruckner, but having only having heard his 9th, i can only say that while i am interested in hearing his 7th and 4th, i am more interested in hearing other interpretations.

[mahlertitan]

I, too have heard that recording of the Ninth. Wasn't exactly spectacular...

The Jochum cycle is a great start for most people, it's a overall very good cycle, if i were to name the only weakness to it (if there is any!),  I would say that the sound is a little too old, the sound quality is not Ideal.

The problem (if you call it a problem) with Bruckner's 7th is that there are so many good recordings out there, it's hard for anyone to collect every single one of them, I am very sorry that i can't help you on this one.

[BorisG]

Karajans recordings of the Bruckner 7th and 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic are much more satisfying than his recordings of that music with the Berlin Philharmonic.

First of all the VPO discs stem from more recent years and are in far better sound and generally better recorded. I never thought that EMI recorded K/BPO correctly. DG did a much better job with K/VPO.

Secondly, the sound of the VPO brass in this music is superb and unique. And IMO cannot be outdone by even so estimable an ensemble as the BPO.

I think K's EMI 4 beats DG. EMI 7 is good, with a different interp than the DG. I prefer the DG. Also agree with the DG 8 with VPO being better than the EMI or the BPO DG. The EMI 8 is not a bad performance but it is late 50's with poor sound. I don't remember much about the earlier DG. I think that was bad sound too. Remasterings couldn't help either. But I don't rate any of K's 8s for favorite status. I prefer Jochum DG, Boulez DG, and BPO Wand on RCA.

[M forever]

Basically same here. I also prefer the EMI 4 over the DG, mostly because of the sound. EMI captured the sound of the orchestra under Karajan much better than DG did in most of their Karajan recordings.
I also prefer the late Wiener Philharmoniker 8 on DG over his earlier readings, partially because of the better sound (while still a little glassy and sugary, DG's recordings made in Vienna are generally much better than what they did in Berlin at the same time). I find the EMI 8 quite interesting because it shows that Karajan moved the orchestra very slowly from a Furtwänglerian view of the music over to his more own. This reading from that transitional phase has strong elements of both. The 1944 recording with the Preussische Staatskapelle is also very interesting, even though the 1st movement is missing, not least because of the stereo finale in surprisingly good sound (esp. for the time).

Karajan's fellow Austrian Harnoncourt presents a much more "Austrian" view of the music, not all too different from Böhm, surprisingly or maybe not surprisingly, but with strong elements of Harnoncourt's own stylistic approach. Which is marked by excellent, detailed and very eloquent phrasing and texture conscious blancing and a fine sense for rhythmic energy as an expressive element. The tempi are rather on the fast side, but never hurried or driven, instead proceeding with a strong and natural inner pulse.
Harnoncourt's approach to Bruckner is not "HIP", but it is highly idiomatic and benefits from his intimate knowledge and playing of baroque and classical music over many decades. The baroque elements in Bruckner's music come out in good relief, but not because he applies baroque expression. Rather, because he allows them to stand out on their own by tracing and outlining the many expressive layers of the music.

[Steve]

Firstly, thanks for the responses. 

As far as the Karajan EMI v. DG recordings of these Symphonies go, we are mostly in agreement. I found the EMI versions of four and eight, but I've always prefered his interpretation with the BPO on DG for the Seventh. There is a certain Je ne suis pa about that performance that, to me, appears uniquely Bruckner. I agree, that those performances with the mighty sound of the VPO are incredible, but there are few performances on record which provide for me the kind of pleasure that this one does.

Any thoughts on the Jochum? He generally remains my standard on these works, as I am not usually partial to Karajan.

[M forever]

Jochum's Bruckner style is very south German baroque catholic, with strong outlines and contrasts painted in luminous, intense colors, with a great feeling both for the ceremonial, mystical and the earthy qualities of the music, both learned and understanding on the one hand and spontaneous and emotional on the other. Very misterioso, and very worldly at the same time.

[Renfield]

Okay, here are some performances that i Liked.


Bruno Walter's 7th with CSO

More thread necromancy (again with apologies), to note that this recording of the Seventh is no less than amazing. I'm also very partial to Celibidache's recording of the work. And of the three Karajan recordings, the EMI probably has the most expressive reading, while the DG (with the VPO) is the one with the clearest sound - technically and otherwise.

But the Walter really is amazing! I was in London recently, snooping around a record store or two for CDs I couldn't find here in Greece and/or through Amazon, and there was this incredibly touching Bruckner Seventh playing from the speakers at some point... Turned out it was the Walter, which I had had for months and never really appreciated, until that point.

(By the way, am I alone in thinking that Karajan's DG Bruckner Fourth is actually better than the EMI version? The EMI is better recorded for what the Fourth seems to require, but the latter version has always sounded more elegant to me. I still prefer Walter or Celi in the Fourth, though. )

[mahlertitan]

well, since there are so many bruckner's 4ths out there, i am too busy listening to others interrepation than deciding which Karajan's 4th is "better". Personally though, since you brought up that you were impressed by Walter's 7th, i would also venture to say that Walter's Bruckner's 4th isn't too bad either.

[Renfield]

well, since there are so many bruckner's 4ths out there, i am too busy listening to others interrepation than deciding which Karajan's 4th is "better". Personally though, since you brought up that you were impressed by Walter's 7th, i would also venture to say that Walter's Bruckner's 4th isn't too bad either.

I still prefer Walter or Celi in the Fourth, though. )

Personally, I think the Walter/Columbia 4th is better than the famous Bohm/VPO 4th - I would rather compare it with the Celibidache/Munich 4th, or the Wand/BPO 4th, myself... And to be honest, I've never found it tiring to compare interpretations of a piece like a Bruckner symphony, even by the same conductor; but maybe that's just me.

In any case, the Walter/Columbia 7th stands as my own recommendation for the piece. As for Harnoncourt's recording, I only know of it, but I don't expect it to measure up to the Walter/Karajan/Celi/Jochum "block".

[mahlertitan]

Personally, I think the Walter/Columbia 4th is better than the famous Bohm/VPO 4th - I would rather compare it with the Celibidache/Munich 4th, or the Wand/BPO 4th, myself... And to be honest, I've never found it tiring to compare interpretations of a piece like a Bruckner symphony, even by the same conductor; but maybe that's just me.

In any case, the Walter/Columbia 7th stands as my own recommendation for the piece. As for Harnoncourt's recording, I only know of it, but I don't expect it to measure up to the Walter/Karajan/Celi/Jochum "block".

or Giulini, it is a crime to not mention Giulini's name when talking about Bruckner's late symphonies.

[BorisG]

At the moment, I only have two recordings of this incredible symphony: Jochum and Karajan. After reading some rather interesting reviews online, I'm considering adding another to the collection. Any comments on this one?

Compared to Karajan, Sanderling, and Klemperer, the Harnoncourt Bruckner 7 is void of passion. You may comfortably forget it. You will not be missing anything. It is hard to believe this is the VPO, seemingly on a read-through.

[M forever]

"Void of passion", what a funy and totally superficial thing to say. You are missing quite a lot, actualy, some of what you are missing I summed up in this earlier paragraph:

Karajan's fellow Austrian Harnoncourt presents a much more "Austrian" view of the music, not all too different from Böhm, surprisingly or maybe not surprisingly, but with strong elements of Harnoncourt's own stylistic approach. Which is marked by excellent, detailed and very eloquent phrasing and texture conscious blancing and a fine sense for rhythmic energy as an expressive element. The tempi are rather on the fast side, but never hurried or driven, instead proceeding with a strong and natural inner pulse.
Harnoncourt's approach to Bruckner is not "HIP", but it is highly idiomatic and benefits from his intimate knowledge and playing of baroque and classical music over many decades. The baroque elements in Bruckner's music come out in good relief, but not because he applies baroque expression. Rather, because he allows them to stand out on their own by tracing and outlining the many expressive layers of the music.

[Renfield]

or Giulini, it is a crime to not mention Giulini's name when talking about Bruckner's late symphonies.

I knew I was forgetting someone!

Still, I've never had the pleasure of personally hearing any of his Bruckner recordings... I only found out about them quite recently, and haven't been able to find them, yet.