Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

[TheGSMoeller]

Hi, Gregory - these just appear as text not as links, I PM'd you.

Hm, nothing happens if you click on the separate 'Group D - D1' or 'Group D - D2' text?
They should be setup as hyperlinks, I know I sent Brian the same ones for Group D that I sent you and it worked. I'll look at them again and see if something changed. 

[Brahmsian]

*chirp...chirp* - Calling Group A peeps - Cato, Ilaria and Pim.    I'm just anxious to see your views on Group A. 

[TheGSMoeller]

*chirp...chirp* - Calling Group A peeps - Cato, Ilaria and Pim.    I'm just anxious to see your views on Group A. 

The June 20th deadline isn't looking so good  I'm hoping we get everyone's participation, this could really produce some interesting results.

[Brahmsian]

The June 20th deadline isn't looking so good  I'm hoping we get everyone's participation, this could really produce some interesting results.

I'm sure the results will start rolling in any day now, Greg.  Perhaps on the weekend, too. 

[TheGSMoeller]

I'm sure the results will start rolling in any day now, Greg.  Perhaps on the weekend, too. 

Do you want the other 3 groups, Ray? You could be the most important person in this BC and control it all on your own! 
Also, your comments were great. Thanks again for posting them.

[Brahmsian]

Do you want the other 3 groups, Ray? You could be the most important person in this BC and control it all on your own! 
Also, your comments were great. Thanks again for posting them.

Thanks Greg, but I'll stick to one group.  I would find it too overwhelming.  Plus, with new fitness plan, I don't have as much time to devote. 

[Karl Henning]

Apologies, I felt a press to get back into production on White Nights;  how about Sunday the 22^nd for a revised deadline?

[TheGSMoeller]

Apologies, I felt a press to get back into production on White Nights;  how about Sunday the 22^nd for a revised deadline?

No need to apologize, Karl.     I know people are busy. And of course I'm going to push the deadline back.

Anyway, what I've heard from White Nights is very good, so I wouldn't want to interrupt that. 

[Ken B]

No need to apologize, Karl.     I know people are busy. And of course I'm going to push the deadline back.

Anyway, what I've heard from White Nights is very good, so I wouldn't want to interrupt that. 

One of my professors did a funny thing in his first year classes he told me about. Day 1 he handed out a schedule with the assignment due dates. At the same time he handed out a separate sheet with automatic extensions for all the assignment due dates.

[Brian]

D1
This is an odd soundscape. The trumpet, horn, and other brass leads, plus timpani, are really forward, as if the trumpeter in the intro is sitting, say, next to the podium. Other soloists are occasionally spotlit. I wonder if this is live? That would account for the sound and the occasional lack of orchestral sync in big tutti sections.

Overall, I like this account. Or I think I do; maybe I'm just really glad to be listening to this music again. There is a lot of quality detail here, like the churning basses at 4:20, which I haven't heard elsewhere. Because of the sound, the orchestra doesn't cohere as an ensemble; it sounds more like a bunch of soloists. Super exciting and mighty fine, though.

I think I will assign scores on my second listen, and edit them in at that point.

D2
Though I like the pace, the orchestral phrasing at times tends toward robotic, like the cellos at the very start. Like the (American?) oboist. The violins hit a rough patch around 11:00-12:00. Generally speaking, I'm not a huge fan of this violin section, although they're altogether drowned out of the coda by the brass and timpani, though overall this is another very good performance which will make scoring hard. Big slowdown in the last couple bars. Greg, you weren't kidding about including nothing but good recordings, were you? It would be easier if there were some stinkers!

D3
The quickest so far by a lot, revealing just how successful this piece can be under a number of different conditions. I have liked all three so far, and this conception is high-quality. Another very prominent trumpet soloist. Lighter texture than D2, or maybe the sound quality is like that: that is, in the big climaxes, you can hear much more stuff going on than just the overpowering brass. Does not sound like a chamber orchestra, however.

D4-6 tomorrow. Scores... maybe this weekend.

D1
On second listen, more favorably impressed with this recording, although it can feel a bit fast at some climaxes and a bit slow at some quiet moments. Can't prove that there are such wild swings in tempo, though; perhaps it's a trick of perception. Reverberant acoustic, but this is a very fine orchestra, better than I gave them credit for. There are some balance quirks nevertheless, like the French horns around 8:00, when they appear to be sitting in my ear canal. Good, but I suspect it can be bettered. 6.8/10

D2
I love this pace. The second listen is helping this recording out; also, it seems maybe to be live, which now makes me more willing to forgive the very rare miscue given that there is also some very fine, expressive playing, particularly from about 4:30-5:00. This is broadly excellent, and fine in most details, even if those imperfections are, well, imperfect. By the way, I'm pretty sure this is slower than Celibidache. 7.31/10

D3
This couldn't be more different from D2, but I still like it a lot. An opposite, equally valid interpretation, nimble and graceful at times, warlike at others. I really like this account. 7.315/10

D4
This is even faster still! Well, by 8 seconds. It's a little less subtle and the orchestra is a little less together, in fact sometimes second-rate. Starting around 4:50, there are some melodic lines in the woodwinds that, at this speed, sound trivial and even a little ugly. Generally I prefer D3. 6.000001/10

D5
Whoa, I LOVE the way the cellos phrase their opening phrase. They really dig into it, express way more than anyone else does. The trumpet is kinda nasally, but everything else is fantastic. Love the violas at 2:30. Checking in at 6:00 to say that this is bearing down on a 10/10 score. Man, I don't even have anything to say about this impressive orchestra, flawless conducting, and expressive phrasing, except to say the standard has been set. The quick diminuendo-crescendo thing around 16:00, which is definitely not in the text (?), is the only moment of controversy here. 9.8765/10

D6
This starts weak, with sloppy repeated notes by the violins, but by 4:00 it's really cooking. Lots of reverb, almost to Slovak Naxos levels around 5:20. The music at 8:15 is cartoonish. Gotta say, all the climaxes are spectacular. The brass of this orchestra is more interesting than the strings, for sure. The timpani are family-size. 6.4/10

1. D5
2. D3
3. D2
4. D1
5. D6
6. D4

[TheGSMoeller]

Thank you, Brian! 

[mc ukrneal]

Overall, a weaker group I think. None of them really give me the euphoria I can get from Bruckner when done well. D3 comes closest, but I imagine would be a second or third place finisher in other groups.

Here are my comments for Group D:

D1 –  Sounds a bit scrappy and the intro does not have quite the assurance of rhythm. But the impact is still quite decent. But as it goes on, it is just dull and lifeless. This just lacks that tension that is so critical in Bruckner. I think the phrasing is partly to blame as it seems quite static. Don't really like it.  Ranking: 6

D2 –  Slower, but with some menace. Not everyone will like the slow speed here, but I find it has much more impact and tension than D1 despite being noticeably slower. Still, the phrasing is not quite as nuanced as it could be. Loudness is just too uniform/static at times. The playing is really of outstanding quality despite everything.   Ranking: 3

D3 – Faster, but some initial inaccuracy in tempo that soon rights itself. Much more tension here. The rubato is quite effective. Though faster than D1 and D2, it never feels rushed. Quite enjoyable.   Ranking: 1

D4 –In general, this is well played, but seems to have some imprecision in tempo (often in the underlying string runs). As it goes on, orchestra sounds a bit strained at times. Though the fastest timing so far, it feels strangely slower than any of them. This one has more dramatic tempo changes, which is disruptive to the overall flow.    Ranking: 5

D5 – Slower start, and right from the start, much more nuance and even more menace than D2. Fantastic climax. This doesn't seem quite as successful at gluing all the different sections together as D3, but it is still a hair better than the others so far: 2

D6 –Nice start, though some small tempo differences between departments (soon resolved). More legato phrasing and stronger rubato in places, but there doesn't seem to be a uniform agreement of tempo across the departments.  But some of the climaxes are very enjoyable. Ranking: 4

A decent, but not super group. D1 and D2 just don't give me enough of the topline in terms of where the pieces is going. D2 has the edge due to phenomenal playing (so precise despite going slower, which is part of what makes the orchestra so impressive). D4 (like D1) is forgettable. D5 has some wonderful qualities, but ultimately stumbles along the way. D6 seems to do best when building to climaxes (or in the climaxes themselves). D3 is on the only real winner here for me. It does a little bit of everything right. At the moment I predict the D group will not be among the top 3 and could be shut out of the finale entirely if they don't pick up the pace.

That leaves us with:
D3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>D5, D2, D6, D4, D1.

[TheGSMoeller]

Thank you, Neal.

Let me know if you (or Brian) would like to score another group. Obliviously June 20 deadline will be extended.

[Pim]

For me it was the first time that I listened with care to this symphony. I used the  piano score of Stradal in the piascore app (http://piascore.com) to keep track, a full score would have been too complex for me. I'm not even sure that I ever heard it all, I have to admit. Bruckner wasn't among my favorites, although this is changing now....
At first I found it hard to overcome the associations with movie soundtracks (Do some of you have this too? Initially I got this 'star wars /star trek' type of feeling , no fault of Bruckner obviously, but a handicap when you're trying to pay attention). Fortunately after repeated listening that totally disappeared. What a great piece of music!

A2: starts out great and is full of tension or suspense (well, something like that) throughout. Easy to get immersed into.

A3: less mesmerizing start than A2, but wonderfully balanced, keeps me involved, e.g. the slowly moving about that starts around 3:50 is beautifully done.

A5: very beautiful, not as haunting as A2 but definitely great. Sound is a bit thin sometimes (e.g. around 7:40-50)

A4: good, but nothing that genuinely grips me

A6: too slow, missing the drive that makes the beginning of A2 so enticing

A1: dragging along a bit, not very captivating

A2 > A3 > A5 >> A4 > A6 > A1

Thanks GSM! Looking forward to round 2

[Brahmsian]

For me it was the first time that I listened with care to this symphony. I used the  piano score of Stradal in the piascore app (http://piascore.com) to keep track, a full score would have been too complex for me. I'm not even sure that I ever heard it all, I have to admit. Bruckner wasn't among my favorites, although this is changing now....
At first I found it hard to overcome the associations with movie soundtracks (Do some of you have this too? Initially I got this 'star wars /star trek' type of feeling , no fault of Bruckner obviously, but a handicap when you're trying to pay attention). Fortunately after repeated listening that totally disappeared. What a great piece of music!

A2: starts out great and is full of tension or suspense (well, something like that) throughout. Easy to get immersed into.

A3: less mesmerizing start than A2, but wonderfully balanced, keeps me involved, e.g. the slowly moving about that starts around 3:50 is beautifully done.

A5: very beautiful, not as haunting as A2 but definitely great. Sound is a bit thin sometimes (e.g. around 7:40-50)

A4: good, but nothing that genuinely grips me

A6: too slow, missing the drive that makes the beginning of A2 so enticing

A1: dragging along a bit, not very captivating

A2 > A3 > A5 >> A4 > A6 > A1

Thanks GSM! Looking forward to round 2

Thanks for posting your thoughts and favorites from Group A, Pim!  Interesting, our bottom 3 picks are the same and in the same order.  Our top 3 are thus the same, only in different order.

[Sergeant Rock]

At first I found it hard to overcome the associations with movie soundtracks (Do some of you have this too?

The main theme of the first movement has always reminded me of Maurice Jarre's Lawrence of Arabia.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

B1

"At 5.43, German troops blazed through the Defenses at Dunkirk..."

Oh, no... it turns out I was THINKING I heard the music through my headphones when in fact it came through my computer speakers. Doesn't sound that dated, after all.

B1B1 Taut, almost military-march-like rippling rhythm. But also delicate when called for. No nonsense. Forward and propulsive. Goalward.  Doesn't try much and succeeds in doing little.

B2B2 Ostentatious opening from the depths... will this be exciting or just too much?
Funny woodwind-balances... turns around in the slow parts with sweetness and soft, buoyant playing.


B4 Massive, shapely, organic, wilful in the good sense... i.e. strongly shaped, and with purpose... powerful.

Good audibility of the bass lines. Unfortunately file corrupted and couldn't be decoded after a few minutes. Makes me realize how little I can judge from even one movement – much less a few minutes – as to the whole performance.

B5: Good Lord... is this one stuck in molasses? Gets out of the holes extreeeeemly slow... and a bit in the sleepy sense, actually... not the "things-yet-to-come" way. Wakes up soon enough, granted... another fingerprint-heavy performance, slightly over the top in the first minute and not the most securely played... but wins over quite quickly with its charm. Guns-a-blazing... a bit crass but effective, damned. Torn between liking it a lot and not very much at all. Wonder how that baby would stand up to repeated listening.

B6: working on it.

[Lisztianwagner]

I need a bit of extra time; but I'll surely post everything on this weekend.

[Karl Henning]

I need a bit of extra time; but I'll surely post everything on this weekend.

I am with you, cara Ilaria.

[TheGSMoeller]

I need a bit of extra time; but I'll surely post everything on this weekend.

Of course, I haven't set a new deadline since some groups haven't received any scores. 

Thank you Jens and Pim for the scores.

Jens - I see B1 then B1B1 and B2B2, but there is no B3? Also, let me know if B4 fails again, I could try to fix it.