Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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André

Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2014, 07:31:25 AM
B1

"At 5.43, German troops blazed through the Defenses at Dunkirk..."

Oh, no... it turns out I was THINKING I heard the music through my headphones when in fact it came through my computer speakers. Doesn't sound that dated, after all.

B1B1 Taut, almost military-march-like rippling rhythm. But also delicate when called for. No nonsense. Forward and propulsive. Goalward.  Doesn't try much and succeeds in doing little.

B2B2 Ostentatious opening from the depths... will this be exciting or just too much?
Funny woodwind-balances... turns around in the slow parts with sweetness and soft, buoyant playing.


B4 Massive, shapely, organic, wilful in the good sense... i.e. strongly shaped, and with purpose... powerful.

Good audibility of the bass lines. Unfortunately file corrupted and couldn't be decoded after a few minutes. Makes me realize how little I can judge from even one movement – much less a few minutes – as to the whole performance.

B5: Good Lord... is this one stuck in molasses? Gets out of the holes extreeeeemly slow... and a bit in the sleepy sense, actually... not the "things-yet-to-come" way. Wakes up soon enough, granted... another fingerprint-heavy performance, slightly over the top in the first minute and not the most securely played... but wins over quite quickly with its charm. Guns-a-blazing... a bit crass but effective, damned. Torn between liking it a lot and not very much at all. Wonder how that baby would stand up to repeated listening.

B6: working on it.


Why is the text in pale yellow against pale grey. It's unreadable ???

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: André on June 21, 2014, 06:56:10 PM
Why is the text in pale yellow against pale grey. It's unreadable ???

I believe it's so to not influence others who might be in the same group.

amw

Non-Brucknerian weighing in here...

So far I have listened to A1 (as background music while making dinner, to get an idea of the structure), A2, A3 and A1 again (blasted through the speakers as only Bruckner can be). Note that these are my only exposure to this piece so far; haven't heard it before and don't have a score.

I liked A1 the most, it had a vividness and presence and "explained" the music to me in a way the others didn't. After that A2, and finally A3 which didn't make much of an impression on me. I'll try to listen to the other 3 shortly and come up with a ranking of some sort.

Something in Bruckner's use of major/minor modes and harmonic progressions, as well as the brass-heavy orchestration, reminds me intensely of Nielsen. I wouldn't have ordinarily thought of a link between the two, and don't know if Bruckner got much play time in Denmark circa 1890s, but wouldn't be surprised if Nielsen knew his music.

mc ukrneal

I can try to do another one, so send me the links. Maybe C? I don't see any comments on that one.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Brahmsian

I'm itching to get to the Adagio movement!   :D

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 23, 2014, 05:54:59 AM
I'm itching to get to the Adagio movement!   :D

I hear ya, Ray. But it looks as if this BC needs more time with the first round. I would like to get at least 3 scores from each group, preferably more, before we move on. I will be patient however, my goal is for the most fair and accurate results.

Good news for Brian then, we might just be starting the second round when he gets back from his European vacation!  ;D

Ken B

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 23, 2014, 08:29:46 AM
I will be patient however, my goal is for the most ... accurate results.

Some short cuts then. Eliminate Wand, Barenboim, and naturally Mehta.  :blank:

Or just promote Herbie to first place and save a lot of bother!  :D

:laugh:

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2014, 08:34:30 AM

Or just promote Herbie to first place and save a lot of bother!  :D

:laugh:

Don't have time for a photoshop session, but if I did I would definitely use this one right about now...


Brian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 23, 2014, 08:39:32 AM
Don't have time for a photoshop session, but if I did I would definitely use this one right about now...


Is this close enough?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2014, 08:34:30 AM
Or just promote Herbie to first place and save a lot of bother!  :D

:laugh:

One of my least favorite Sixths. If he wins, I'm going to throw myself off the Rheinbrücke.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 23, 2014, 08:52:15 AM
One of my least favorite Sixths. If he wins, I'm going to throw myself off the Rheinbrücke.

Sarge

Knowing your history with BC's, Sarge, you'll shoot Herbie right to the top!

Karl Henning

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 23, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
Knowing your history with BC's, Sarge, you'll shoot Herbie right to the top!

Oh, never do that to a friend!  0:)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot


Sergeant Rock

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 23, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
Knowing your history with BC's, Sarge, you'll shoot Herbie right to the top!

;D :D ;D  ...yes, given my record of eliminating my favorites I'm almost certain to do that.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Lisztianwagner

A1 – The orchestral sound is clear and melodious, instruments well handled and balanced, but the rhythm is too slow and makes the movement lack energy and intensity, with a sense of heaviness.

A2 – Great opening with enigmatic and mysterious atmosphere, sharp and clear violins in the Bruckner rhythm; quietly intense main theme, energetic in fortissimo. Passionate and expressive second theme (gorgeous violins in the first section and powerful brass in the third one); nice climax at the beginning of the recapitulation; glorious, powerful finale in the coda. Beautiful and harmonic orchestral playing,  fine dynamics, the rhythm is a bit too slow but that doesn't ruin the intensity of the movement.

A3 – The opening is not as mesmerizing and mysterious as the previous recording, but suggestive enough; the faster tempo gives great power and intensity, especially in the fortissimi. Beautifully atmospheric second theme, very lyrical in the second section; strings and woodwinds are splendid. Very fine phrasing.

A4 – Very fast rhythm that works finely anyway, maybe apart from the too hasty first theme; orchestral playing and dynamics are well handled, but brass sounds a bit too dull in the main theme, both in the exposition and in the recapitulation and in the coda.

A5 – Very good opening, suggestive and enigmatic; the solos of orchestra are clear and well played. Powerful, energetic fortissimo in the first theme, though the instruments almost sounds to lose the pace at some point. Great intensity and dymanics, especially in the brass. The second theme is lyrical and expressive. The development is a bit too slow, but intense and majestic anyway. Vigorous, involving finale in the coda.

A6 -  Remarkable recording in the second theme, strings and woodings are passionate and melodious. Instead the brass has a poor sound quality. Good dynamics and energy, but a bit too slow rhythm.


A3>A2>A5>A4>A6>A1
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

jlaurson

#135
B1

At first I was THINKING I heard the music through my headphones when in fact it came through my computer speakers. Doesn't sound that dated, after all. Taut, almost military-march-like rippling rhythm. But also delicate when called for. No nonsense. Forward and propulsive. Goalward.  Doesn't try much and succeeds in doing little.

B2 Good lord, what a ridiculous crawl. If that doesn't put you to sleep, what will? At least the opening doesn't work for me at all.. the gathering of energy after that is better. Still, I don't like it. It's so slow, of course, that I think: If that's Celi, and the Celi Munich performance (it's not, the sound is off, at the least, nor do I think the brass of Munich sounds like that), then I have egg on my face for professing to love that Sixth above all others except Haitink/Dresden, perhaps.

Oh... bloody rallentando there... not my thing. Climax is fine.

Ostentatious opening from the depths... will this be exciting or just too much?
Funny woodwind-balances... turns around in the slow parts with sweetness and soft, buoyant playing.



B3 Stuffed horns, tempestuous, brass that is glaring and overbearing.
Fast as the dickens, it sounds...
Tubby. Something about it... but not sure if it strikes me as special. At least not today, not this hour.


B4 Massive, shapely, organic, wilful in the good sense... i.e. strongly shaped, and with purpose... powerful.

Good audibility of the bass lines. Unfortunately file corrupted and couldn't be decoded after a few minutes. Makes me realize how little I can judge from even one movement – much less a few minutes – as to the whole performance. Sound quality of the live performance compromised... though if the performance is worth it, nothing to not consider it...

Now that the file works...  not particularly special, actually...  though... I am quietly beginning to like it... it leaves Bruckner alone, it seems to me... but then, I just do love the calm part of that movement very much, so perhaps it's not unusual for any performance to win me over at that point. But it strikes me as unhurried...



B5: Good Lord... is this one stuck in molasses? Gets out of the holes extreeeeemly slow... and a bit in the sleepy sense, actually... not the "things-yet-to-come" way. Wakes up soon enough, granted... another fingerprint-heavy performance, slightly over the top in the first minute and not the most securely played... but wins over quite quickly with its charm. Guns-a-blazing... a bit crass but effective, damned. Torn between liking it a lot and not very much at all. Wonder how that baby would stand up to repeated listening.

B6 Dark, overtly dramatic beginning... sound not great... levels seem messed with. Bruckner as Schumann... from all the detailing I can't imagine this being a particularly long-line performance. Anti-Bloomstedtian. Still, goddamn gorgeous quiet second (??) theme of the first movement... oceanic or maybe more sea-like... Vaughan Williams should have liked to listen to Bruckner like that... But out come the bloody exclamation marks again, after that.

Smudging, dragging of violin figures in opening



1: B1

2: B4

3: B6

4: B5

5: B2

6: B3

mc ukrneal

Here are my comments for Group C:

C1 –  Somewhat tame/softer opening (softer in approach, not sound volume). Once the brass comes in, they create a gorgeous sound, but this seems like a sleepy version to me. The best I can put it is 'all soft corners and no hard edges'. Climaxes are beautiful to look at, but are offset by everything else.    Ranking: 5

C2 –  Similar tempo to start (as C1), but already a bit more life to it. But some of the brass doesn't  have quite a forward enough sound/placement, which doesn't make it as forceful as it could be. Tempo picks up at times as well. Bit of a mixed picture here, but I enjoy the precision of the orchestra.  A solid version.     Ranking:  2

C3 –  Much more intense and menacing start with lots of details already in phrasing. Much more bite here, though tempo is fairly 'middle of the road' with some noticeable tempo changes at times (generally faster). This one has more of a pulse throughout than the previous recordings. There is a certain scrappiness at times, but surprisingly I enjoy it anyway.  Ranking: 1

C4 –  Brisk start, but mushy articulation. Timpani seem too loud in relation to the rest. However, it moves along nicely. Live version. Trumpets don't really seem to have much bite (not sure if you will like this, but I'd prefer a bit more prominence).  Much more variance in tempo, which seemed a bit random to me (or done for drama, though I would think there is enough drama without having to create it). Big climaxes come in too anemic sometimes and unison is occasionally lost. Slowdown at end just exemplifies the problems.  Ranking: 6

C5 –  Slower start. It's somewhat menacing, but lacking in real bite. It sounds a bit plodding at times.  Not crazy about the horn tone at times either. I think ultimately, it just feels a bit episodic, though I prefer the second half more.  Ranking: 4

C6 –  Another slower version, but more menacing with some nice phrasing.  Here we have a more exciting version despite a slower tempo, partly because it seems to do more with the phrasing and in the way it differentiates the tempo. But the tempo is a sticking point. It slows down sooooooo much after the beginning section – too much (and in other places too).  Still, a lot of pluses here, and nicely done.  Ranking: 3

Hmmm. I am beginning to wonder if I am looking for the performances to be played a certain way rather than just taking them for what they are. But I also cannot help that that there are certain signposts that should be there along the way. C3 hit more of them in this group, but there are a number of questionable calls even there. So having listened to two groups, I am still looking for that opening movement that hits my sweet spot.

Ranking: C3, C2, C6, C5, C1, C4.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

amw

Predictably, I am the weirdo here in that I like A1 and A4 the best of the lot.

The tempo, phrasing & instrumental balance of A1 feel very natural—I didn't even realise it was 2 minutes longer than the others until I lined them up in a playlist. The orchestra has the requisite Late Romantic klang with full but not too brassy brass, and gets a ton of mileage out of both quiet moments (the veiled menace of the 1st theme, the twisty woodwind counterpoint in the middle) and the climaxes (which were, needless to say, the most glorious of the lot).

A4 is my second choice due to being completely different; if A1 is the "cathedral of sound" interpretation A4 is more like a force of nature. (A3 is also like this, but I don't like the phrasing there as much.) The lines seem more continuous due to the faster tempi. Mostly it's just more exciting.

Then comes A2 (points docked for too much cuivré from the horns), and A5, A3 and A6, none of which interested me quite as much.

I wonder why Bruckner decided to head the movement "Majestoso" (which is not a real Italian word) instead of "Maestoso"... or for that matter "Feierlich" which is what he usually seemed to use for that meaning.

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: amw on June 24, 2014, 01:34:24 AM
Predictably, I am the weirdo here in that I like A1 and A4 the best of the lot.


But this is the beauty of a BC, everyone's contrasting preferences are on display. I wouldn't want to do this unless there would be some discrepancy between scores. Thank you, amw8)

And thank you Lisztianwagner, Jens (I think your scores are in there  :) ) and Neal (again) for the scores!


TheGSMoeller

Here's the results so far, group A could be done, but will wait for the other three to pick up some more scores.
Again, thank you all for participating!  ;D



Group A

Ray         Pim      LisztianWagner      amw
A5           A2         A3                       A1
A2           A3         A2                       A4
A3           A5         A5                       A2
A4           A4         A4                       A5
A6           A6         A6                       A3
A1           A1         A1                       A6


Group B

Jens
B1
B4
B6
B5
B2
B3


Group C

Neal
C3
C2
C6
C5
C1
C4


Group D

Brian     Neal
D5           D3
D3           D5
D2           D2
D1           D6
D6           D4
D4           D1