Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

[Ken B]

[
B2
Wow, Jens wasn't kidding. This is intimidatingly, broodingly, creepily slow. The second time so far I've heard a clip that's slower than Celibidache. The woodwinds are rather perky about two-and-a-half minutes in, though. Especially forward oboist. The quieter bits in the middle movement are startlingly good, particularly anything involving wind players. Of course, the tempo is much faster here than it was at the start. Why'd they have to go and make the start that slow if the rest isn't? Listening to the insanely slow opening, you'd never expect that the final chord would be so short! Oh well, I would give the first two minutes a 5/10 and the last 15 minutes an 8/10, and mathematically that comes out to 7.6/10.

B2 Very slow initial tempo,  an air of mystery and anticipation firmly established. This can only be one conductor (the forward woodwinds later confirm). This proves my assertion that Bruckner cannot be played too slowly. I love almost everything about this performance (would like a bit more timpani when the first theme is played forté but that's a niggle). The buildup to the recapitulation, the central climax, is thrilling, the swirling strings creating almost unbearable tension before the orchestra explodes. Goosebump producing. The coda is well-balanced, all the contrapuntal strands heard clearly, the final chord delivered like a hammerblow: short and decisive. The overall impression this version delivers is one of inevitability, from first note to last. The parts are just put together well.

I listened to this twice. My reaction is quite different from the two worthies above.
First I like the overall shape of the performance pretty well. I *like* the slow beginning,
and in general think slow in Bruckner a good approach. I rather wish the rest of it were a bit slower
than it is, but not radically. I am less happy with the details. In some of the quieter passages
especially the orchestra sometimes seems on the verge of unravelling. In the final section section
I don't get a sense of swell and ascent very strongly (which I do at the beginning quite well),
and the abrupt final chord does not help.
There are in passing some grating sounds, and some loose ensemble sounds too.
Under rehearsed?
Imagine you see from some yards an attractive looking mosaic on a wall. As you approach you notice problems,
such as crude figuration or misplaced tiles. That's more or less how I feel about this performance.
I think I like the conductor, but I think I caught him (or his band) on an off day.

6/10

[Brian]

B4
Sarge is right that this is middle-of-road and standard, but I kinda like it. I certainly find it hard to fault, and I appreciate the excellent work the horn players are putting in. I also appreciate that the slightly brisker pace is maintained, instead of swooning like B3. Hey! Was that a cough? Is this live? This is in many ways similar to B1, though I prefer the slightly more refined orchestra, and especially the superior brass. The too-long final chord confirms that B2 spoiled me. 7/10

B5
The first thing that made me want to open this window and take notes was the remarkably laid-back violin phrasing starting at 7:30. It's more of a far-sighted buildup than usual, I think. There are some moments of lethargy, and overall I think this is just an OK one. 6/10

[Brian]

B6
Okay, sorry, Greg, but I've finally reached Over-Listening Burnout for this movement. I admire this one for maintaining a consistent tempo, but is it too rigid? Are the textures too light? I'm not sure. The smeared string rhythms are a bigtime problem. Oh gosh, I was going to give this the benefit of the doubt, but I can't approve of the weaksauce coda. God, the last bars are awful. 5/10

To eliminate: B3, B6

[TheGSMoeller]

Group A

Ray         Pim      LisztianWagner      amw
A5           A2         A3                       A1
A2           A3         A2                       A4
A3           A5         A5                       A2
A4           A4         A4                       A5
A6           A6         A6                       A3
A1           A1         A1                       A6


Group B

Jens    Brian
B1       B2   
B4       B4
B6       B1
B5       B5
B2       B6
B3       B3


Group C

Neal
C3
C2
C6
C5
C1
C4


Group D

Brian     Neal
D5           D3
D3           D5
D2           D2
D1           D6
D6           D4
D4           D1

[Sergeant Rock]

B1  Bruckner as light as a summer breeze, seems swifter than its timing suggests. Nothing to fault and much to love even though it's not my preferred way with Bruckner 6. This has the finest sound too. Great timpani.

B2  Very slow initial tempo,  an air of mystery and anticipation firmly established. This can only be one conductor (the forward woodwinds later confirm). This proves my assertion that Bruckner cannot be played too slowly. I love almost everything about this performance (would like a bit more timpani when the first theme is played forté but that's a niggle). The buildup to the recapitulation, the central climax, is thrilling, the swirling strings creating almost unbearable tension before the orchestra explodes. Goosebump producing. The coda is well-balanced, all the contrapuntal strands heard clearly, the final chord delivered like a hammerblow: short and decisive. The overall impression this version delivers is one of inevitability, from first note to last. The parts are just put together well.

B3  The conductor whips this baby out of the gate like it's the Preakness. I thought at first this might be Norrington, but in fact it's even faster!--not over the length of the movement but the introduction and first theme. The initial double forté blast  is poweful, the timpani prominent, the rhythm distinct. I like. With the arrival of the second theme the brakes are appled, slowing things down considerably, but beautifully so. It creates quite a contrast between the two themes. After that I heard and felt nothing terribly interesting. The third theme is pedestrian, having none of the rhythmic thrill those Bruckner third themes are supposed to deliver. The central climax moved me not at all. So, an unusual and promising beginning that goes nowhere interesting. The sound is detailed in a technicolor sort of way, heavy on the brass; the trumpets can be piercing.

B4  A typical Sixth, MOR. Nothing really stands out. I suppose that's a good thing but also a bit boring. The central climax was odd. It just sort of happened with no sense that things were building towards it. Compared to B2 those swirling strings were deeply recessed.  The final chord lingers, outstaying its welcome but then most conductors do it this way.

B5  Brian mentioned "lethargy", Jens "sleepy" and maybe that's what I needed when I listened to it because it worked for me. Very detailed but without the highlighting of B2. I was constantly aware of the horns (my fetish satisfied  )  but those repetitious string figurations, those obsessive Brucknerian rhythmic patterns that drive the music  forward, were always clear. The build-up to the coda was nicely done, almost delicate, and certainly mysterious and haunting.

B6  The most rigidly conducted of the six. Like having a metronome in front of the orchestra instead of a human being. Too harsh, perhaps, but I really didn't hear anything that stirred my emotions. It was mechanical...until the final bars when the brakes are applied so heavily it interrupts forward momentum and orchestral cohesion (the strings disappear too, buried under the brass onslaught). Celi does the coda in a similar fashion on his EMI recording but with a lighter, more natural, touch. Is this Celi, a different performance, one I'm not aware of?

1-B2
2-B5
3-B1
4-B3
5-B4
6-B6

[TheGSMoeller]

Great comments, Sarge. Thank you!

Let me know if you would like to hear group C or D, they need love too. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Great comments, Sarge. Thank you!

Let me know if you would like to hear group C or D, they need love too. 

Pick C or D for me. And send me A too. I might not comment on A but I must hear the performances that are dividing amw from the rest of the group 

Sarge

[Brian]

That reminds me, I just want to chime in and say that it's really interesting reading amw's thoughts about the symphony and performances given amw's lack of background with the music.

[TheGSMoeller]

Pick C or D for me. And send me A too. I might not comment on A but I must hear the performances that are dividing amw from the rest of the group 

Sarge

Ill send group D, it has less recordings you already own. Ill send it in a few hours, at work now.
Ill get A in there also.

[amw]

That reminds me, I just want to chime in and say that it's really interesting reading amw's thoughts about the symphony and performances given amw's lack of background with the music.

Thanks. That reminds me, too, some comments about the music itself.

First of all, clarinet solo at ~40 seconds... it's Beethoven's First Symphony! That has to be intentional.

Second... on reflection, the only part of this movement that I sort of lost interest in was the very long buildup in the coda. That endless descending sequence in the bass with "epic" horn fanfares over the top... seriously, Anton, get on with it. Someone did once say that what sets Bruckner's conclusions apart is that they seem to come out of nowhere, like a metaphorical "leap of faith". Perhaps that's part of the reason I appreciated A1, as well—the dynamics and tempo are kept restrained for most of the coda, so it doesn't feel like a buildup but rather the substance of the movement reduced to an endless cycle, then the timpani and trumpets + 'bones come in like a thunderclap (first time I was like "whoa, is this the end? We're not even in A major!") and it's only about halfway through the final 17 bars that it becomes obvious that, yeah, this is the only way the movement could have possibly ended.

Third, I did go on IMSLP to look for a score and ended up downloading Bruckner's autograph manuscript of the first movement to listen along with the next one in my random playlist (I think it was A5). Two things that stood out to me: he numbers the bars not continuously but starting over from 1 with every phrase (usually 8 bars, sometimes 10 or 12). That gave me a bit more insight into his compositional process: those 8- (or 10- or 12-)bar units are the basic building blocks of the piece, and a successful performance should make them sound like units rather than breaking them up to focus more on details. Also: He does not switch to 6/4 at any point as I originally thought (it stays in 4/4 the whole way through), but the entire second theme group is written in sextuplets and at a slower tempo (minim = 50 as opposed to minim = 72) which has the same effect but allows him to alternate triplets and duplets/dotted rhythms as he desires. I don't know what it is with Romantic composers and 2 against 3s, Brahms was heavily into that stuff as well.

Oh and another thing: most of the recapitulation is in F-sharp minor/major rather than A, only resolving to A at the start of the coda (when the main theme comes in in the oboe + horn). Somewhat unconventional, but foreshadowed in the way the main theme turns to F-sharp minor during the very first tutti. Good long-term planning there.

[Sergeant Rock]

I don't know what it is with Romantic composers and 2 against 3s

It's the Bruckner Rhythm...it shows up so often it's like a musical fingerprint.

Sarge

[Drosera]

Apologies for the tardiness:

B1
Rather brisk and literal. There's too little mystery or indulgence. Many small uncertainties in tempo suggest someone with not a huge amount of experience in Bruckner. You don't quite feel in safe hands. After a while the straightforwardness gets annoying, than dull.
6,5/10

B2
Opens very measured, but still straightforward. Does manage to grab you early on. You immediately get the impression that this won't be deep, but it will be a very enjoyable, big-boned performance. And indeed, that is what follows. Transitions can be a bit awkward. And there's a serious need for more atmosphere. But the terrific brass really makes you smile.
7-7,5/10

B3
This really gets going rightaway, very assured. Very well judged tempo changes. Feels completely natural. But it does come across as a bit plain and fails to really grab me.
7/10

B4
Opens almost threatening, but continues in a nicely middle-of-the-road way. Good tempo changes and some lovely brass again. There is a bit of trouble in keeping the overall tension and overall it tends to be slightly superficial, but it does manage to be very nice warm 'Bruckner-bath'.
7,5/10

B5
Gets off to a slightly cautious start. The orchestra is definitely not of the world-class/jet-set variety, but the performers let you hear many melodic lines that remain hidden, or are swamped or overlooked in most performances. That is especially true of the woodwind. I very much like how this performance isn't focused on momentum, but really dwells in the melodic richness; without losing the underlying pulse. This feels much more true to the rustic, modest and simple spirit of Bruckner than the majority of performances. To me this is rather special. (Could this be Tintner?)
8,5/10

B6
Very smooth and well-balanced, but there's too little variation in tempo. This appears to be deliberate. And yet there are some uncomfortable tempo changes as well. It's all quite pretty, but is constantly in danger of becoming 'Bruckner wallpaper'. The overall buildup is very well judged. Hard to assess this performance, on the whole it manages to get most things right. But the rallentando at the end is a bit much.
7,5-10

Result:
1. B5
2. B6
3. B4
4. B2
5. B3
6. B1

[Brahmsian]

*munches popcorn*

[TheGSMoeller]

Group A

Ray         Pim      LisztianWagner      amw
A5           A2         A3                       A1
A2           A3         A2                       A4
A3           A5         A5                       A2
A4           A4         A4                       A5
A6           A6         A6                       A3
A1           A1         A1                       A6


Group B

Jens    Brian     Drosera
B1       B2         B5
B4       B4         B6
B6       B1         B4
B5       B5         B2
B2       B6         B3
B3       B3         B1


Group C

Neal
C3
C2
C6
C5
C1
C4


Group D

Brian     Neal
D5           D3
D3           D5
D2           D2
D1           D6
D6           D4
D4           D1

[TheGSMoeller]

*munches popcorn*

I'm gonna stick to my guns and try to get 4 scores per group before I move on or change the format. I've got all summer, I'm not going anywhere. 

Later that evening...

Perhaps if I closed Group A and revealed the two eliminated recordings it would garner up some more interest in finishing up Groups B, C and D. This could also begin to open up more discussions on the performers and their style/interpretation. Consider it a little teaser.   
What say you, my friends?

[mc ukrneal]

I'm gonna stick to my guns and try to get 4 scores per group before I move on or change the format. I've got all summer, I'm not going anywhere. 

Later that evening...

Perhaps if I closed Group A and revealed the two eliminated recordings it would garner up some more interest in finishing up Groups B, C and D. This could also begin to open up more discussions on the performers and their style/interpretation. Consider it a little teaser.   
What say you, my friends?

Sure. Cosi did this all the time. I think it did precisely that.

[amw]

Aren't we expecting one more vote for group A? Or did that person back out?

[jlaurson]

I'm working my way through Group C, now... and hope to finish with that tomorrow.

[TheGSMoeller]

Aren't we expecting one more vote for group A? Or did that person back out?

I think Cato is the other with Group A, but he's been on computer vacation for a while it seems, when he does return I was going to ask if he would listen to C or D instead of A.

I'm working my way through Group C, now... and hope to finish with that tomorrow.

Thanks, Jens!

[Sergeant Rock]

Greg, you didn't include my votes for Group B in your latest compilation. Don't I count? 

I'm working through Group D now. Should have it finished before the weekend.

Sarge