Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 03:26:43 AM
Greg, you didn't include my votes for Group B in your latest compilation. Don't I count?  :(

I'm working through Group D now. Should have it finished before the weekend.

Sarge

Ouch!  :o  I didn't, Sarge, and I apologize!
(I'm now envisioning R. Lee Ermey insulting me for my failure)
When I get home I'll add your scores.  ;D

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2014, 03:38:36 AM
When I get home I'll add your scores.  ;D

I'll do it. I have nothing better to do at the moment  :)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

Group A

Ray         Pim      LisztianWagner      amw
A5           A2         A3                       A1
A2           A3         A2                       A4
A3           A5         A5                       A2
A4           A4         A4                       A5
A6           A6         A6                       A3
A1           A1         A1                       A6


Group B

Jens    Brian     Drosera   Sarge
B1       B2         B5          B2
B4       B4         B6          B5
B6       B1         B4          B1
B5       B5         B2          B3
B2       B6         B3          B4
B3       B3         B1          B6


Group C

Neal
C3
C2
C6
C5
C1
C4


Group D

Brian     Neal
D5           D3
D3           D5
D2           D2
D1           D6
D6           D4
D4           D1
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Karl Henning

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 03:26:43 AM
Greg, you didn't include my votes for Group B in your latest compilation. Don't I count?  :(

I'm working through Group D now. Should have it finished before the weekend.

Sarge

I accept the Sarge Challenge!  I shall see to my batch before the weekend!  :)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

TheGSMoeller

Thank you, Sarge!
And I love how mixed group B is, B2 and B5 have really split it's listeners.

Currently B3 and B6 are being eliminated, although if another B score shows up B6 has a chance to survive but B3 is all but toast (which might make me cry a little)

jlaurson

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2014, 03:52:44 AM
Thank you, Sarge!
And I love how mixed group B is, B2 and B5 have really split it's listeners.

Currently B3 and B6 are being eliminated, although if another B score shows up B6 has a chance to survive but B3 is all but toast (which might make me cry a little)

How can B6, ranked 2nd and 3rd (and 5 / 6) be eliminated? Oh, OK. Doing the math... indeed. What a split group.  :)

Karl Henning

The Secret Word for tonight is: Balkanization!  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2014, 03:58:57 AM
How can B6, ranked 2nd and 3rd (and 5 / 6) be eliminated? Oh, OK. Doing the math... indeed. What a split group.  :)

With a scoring system of 5 pts for first place and zero for last place...

B1 – 11
B2 - 13
B3 – 3
B4 – 12
B5 – 13
B6 - 8

I'm posting in case anyone sees a discrepancy.

Ken B

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2014, 03:52:44 AM
Thank you, Sarge!
And I love how mixed group B is, B2 and B5 have really split it's listeners.

Currently B3 and B6 are being eliminated, although if another B score shows up B6 has a chance to survive but B3 is all but toast (which might make me cry a little)

B2 was the only one I listened to, and it split me! I liked the overall approach, but thought it fell short in the details. Is a conductor's job to set the overall reading, or to keep the piece together? I think it's the latter, so I think he (or she) had an off day.

I remember going to a smallish concert a few years ago, by a good amateur group. We both commented , I wonder if you need a conductor for such a small group. Part way through it started to come apart. The conductor suddenly began singing in a loud voice, switching atttention from one part of the group to the other, and pulled them back from the brink. Then he shut up.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 03:44:44 AM
Group A

Ray         Pim      LisztianWagner      amw
A5           A2         A3                       A1
A2           A3         A2                       A4
A3           A5         A5                       A2
A4           A4         A4                       A5
A6           A6         A6                       A3
A1           A1         A1                       A6


Current Group A tally (after 4 votes):

A1 = 5
A2 = 16
A3 = 13
A4 = 10
A5 = 16
A6 = 3

jlaurson

Bruckner Group C


C1
Opening. Muted, dark. Steady rhythm. Slow. Good! Dynamic shading isn't super subtle, but effective. Outbreak quite vociferous...  Lusty build-up into a strong finale. That's already much above average of what I had in Group B. Glorious lead up to the finale... calm and very steady pule. Nice, secure acellerando and crisp lapping sea-sawing violin figures... brass intrusions can't be avoided, so might as well make them count... Is it my mood, today, and the fact that it's my first Bruckner 6th of the day... but somehow I'm liking almost everything about this first movement.


C2
Soft, reticent sound. Calm but not dragging. Not what I would like, just right now... but very well. Recording quality isn't top notch; the soft strings blend into a background haze instead of standing in front of a 'real black'. Very organic, almost unnoticeable ratcheting up of the energy and right back... this would suggest a real Brucknerian and also a very fine opera conductor. I know it ain't Thielemann, because it can't be (and it's just a touch straighter than CT might do the Sixth), but that skill of the invisible fast forward button – to the extend I can claim so much after just a few minutes. Doing something on the side, the performance didn't reign me back in until the finale... which is perhaps the downside of subtlety. Not subtle, that finale, but sneaks up on you.


C3
Corrupted file; have to download again. Didn't pay attention and certainly didn't make me.
Let's try again. Hello... loud! Brass-heavy and brass-lusty. Wide dynamic range. Brass like old trees being felled... robust and crusty Lederhosen. Neither like nor dislike particularly... more like, actually. Where other orchestras make lapping waves of seas, this makes a subterranean gurgle and then a hasty, slightly pasticky sound. Strings seem not well caught; brass has off-moments (one-off live recording, I hope) and gets carried away and man, there's someone thwacking his timpani, in the back. Horrible and lovely. Not actually crazy, but within the limited bandwith of this group it's crazy enough. Strings later on sound better, and more wavy-lapping. Horns with real bloomers, though, and transitions a bit choppy. Nearly grounds for disqualification, probably. But not yet. It's too easy, to hone in on the obvious and the objective. In this.


C4
I love Bruckner's Sixth very much... but perhaps this repeated hearing of mvt. 1 is getting on my nerves.
Fast, hasty, jarring is what I hear—where, had I heard it first, I might have heard propulsion, excitement, eagerness. It settles down like a good boy and has me involved a good deal... sort-of casually liking it a lot.


C5
Yes, OK... Ok... Haha! Terrific climax... very involving, very good Bruckner-rhythm... steady and with a deal of bite. Having belated fun with this one. Bit brash, yes. But hey. Unedited live recording? Not even commercial? Sound isn't bad for that. Radio broadcast, presumably.


C6
Regal, royal, certainly short on mystery (but then I'm not looking for that in Sy.6 – any movement thereof). Straight-laced... tempi seem moderate. Playing is excellent. If this turned out to be an earlier Haitink recording, I wouldn't kick myself... (Not saying it is...) Organ-like and a little bombastic in the finale, a little dense – with the inner voices sounding like distractions, rather than adding to the overall structure.


not ready to rank group C yet, but getting there.

Sergeant Rock

#191
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 02, 2014, 04:59:28 AM
Current Group A tally (after 4 votes):

A1 = 5
A2 = 16
A3 = 13
A4 = 10
A5 = 16
A6 = 3

Listened to A1, the performance that polarized the group. I can see why amw likes it...and I can also see why the others rated it last. I was torn between intellectual doubt and emotional cheering. The interpretation is very unusual with abrupt differences in tempo that, I don't think, are justified by the score. The first and second themes are played at a fairly brisk pace and I thought, How is this going to be stretched out to almost 19 minutes? The answer came with the third theme and the development, taken at a snail's pace ??? I initially rebelled but kept listening. The development really is enchanting. Then there was an accelerando into the central climax that thrilled with thunderous timpani. The coda likewise had two very different tempos, the first initially slow, almost like a trudging pilgrim approaching a celestial goal, then suddenly a quick dash to the end with a decisive final chord (no lingering), just how I like it.

The sudden shifts in speeds are jarring but they kept me awake ;D It's the kind of interpretation I tend to like: something different. I couldn't wait for the reveal; I did some research to find out who it is, and ordered it.

I probably won't be voting (I have to listen to group D first before getting back to Group A) but even if I gave it a first it probably wouldn't prevent its elimination.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 02, 2014, 04:59:28 AM
Current Group A tally (after 4 votes):

A1 = 5
A2 = 16
A3 = 13
A4 = 10
A5 = 16
A6 = 3

Thank you for the tally, Ray!
I will more than likely close Group A and reveal the first two eliminated this evening. The only way it would change is if A1 received a first place=5 pts and A4 received last place=0 pts. If someone within the next 4-5 hours either chimes in or wants to score it I will allow it, otherwise I think this BC could use a little discussion to ignite some extra interest in the remaining groups and further rounds.

Brian

I have to pack for France so I don't have time to listen to any, but now I'm really curious about A1!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Brian on July 02, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
I have to pack for France so I don't have time to listen to any, but now I'm really curious about A1!

You will know soon!  ;D

TheGSMoeller

Group A - Round 1 Eliminations

A1



"rhythm is too slow and makes the movement lack energy and intensity"

"Quite sluggish, not enough momentum"

"The tempo, phrasing & instrumental balance of A1 feel very natural"


A1 has become a popular figure already. Receiving three last place votes and one first place, also gathering a late "thumbs up" review from Sarge. And if you thought the opening movement is slow, then you may not be prepared for the 18-minute finale, but it needs to be heard, certainly a different universe of Bruckner. Dennis Russell Davies may be the new Cool Kid of the Haydn Haus, but has yet to be offered a key into Bruckner's Abbey, perhaps over time, and with amw and Sarge's seal of approval, it may find its way into a better looking position. But not today, not now. Sorry, DRD.




A6



"missing the drive that makes the beginning of A2 so enticing"

"Good dynamics and energy, but a bit too slow rhythm."

"Strings at times sound distant and thin to my ears."



A6 just seemed doomed from the start. It's made a few appearances on GMG in the past, and this combo has made some hits (along with equal misses) on Telarc, but it didn't seem that Lopez-Cobos/Cinn. had what it takes to match up with the big boys and girls of the Abbey.

amw

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2014, 05:47:30 AMThe interpretation is very unusual with abrupt differences in tempo that, I don't think, are justified by the score.

Interesting... according to the manuscript, that's exactly what you're supposed to do.

The opening is marked Majestoso and (in a different hand) half note = 72.
The second theme is marked Bedeutend langsamer and half note = 50. There is no accelerando into the third theme or the development—both are supposed to be played at the Bedeutend langsamer tempo. Finally there is an accelerando and Tempo wie anfangs at the central climax (retransition -> recapitulation).
Similarly, in the recapitulation the second theme again slows down to Bedeutend langsamer, and Tempo wie anfangs is not indicated again until 17 bars before the end (the big timpani + brass entrance) with no accelerando leading into it.
The final chord has an obvious staccato mark so yes, lingering there would be wrong.

I don't know if the published score differs from this, but it seems to indicate that Bruckner sort of wanted things that way, with a slow-ish third theme, development section and coda. DRD's third theme does sound a little bit too held back to me, now—I'd like it to feel a little faster, possibly w/crisper articulation or something—but I still think his development and coda are pretty spot on.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: amw on July 02, 2014, 08:17:29 PM
Interesting... according to the manuscript, that's exactly what you're supposed to do.

The opening is marked Majestoso and (in a different hand) half note = 72.
The second theme is marked Bedeutend langsamer and half note = 50. There is no accelerando into the third theme or the development—both are supposed to be played at the Bedeutend langsamer tempo. Finally there is an accelerando and Tempo wie anfangs at the central climax (retransition -> recapitulation).
Similarly, in the recapitulation the second theme again slows down to Bedeutend langsamer, and Tempo wie anfangs is not indicated again until 17 bars before the end (the big timpani + brass entrance) with no accelerando leading into it.
The final chord has an obvious staccato mark so yes, lingering there would be wrong.

I don't know if the published score differs from this, but it seems to indicate that Bruckner sort of wanted things that way, with a slow-ish third theme, development section and coda. DRD's third theme does sound a little bit too held back to me, now—I'd like it to feel a little faster, possibly w/crisper articulation or something—but I still think his development and coda are pretty spot on.

When the comparison began, I tried to follow the score but I had trouble reading the hand-written manuscript copy. I gave up. I'm glad you had no such problem. Thank you very much for checking the score on those points of tempo. My "intellectual" doubts about DRD's interpretation have been erased and I can enjoy, guilt free, the emotional ride 8)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#198
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
A1 has become a popular figure already. Receiving three last place votes and one first place, also gathering a late "thumbs up" review from Sarge. And if you thought the opening movement is slow, then you may not be prepared for the 18-minute finale, but it needs to be heard

Amazon confirmed shipment of my copy a few minutes ago. I should be able to hear that finale tomorrow.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

amw

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 03, 2014, 04:09:14 AM
When the comparison began, I tried to follow the score but I had trouble reading the hand-written manuscript copy. I gave up. I'm glad you had no such problem.

Bruckner's not got the neatest handwriting I've ever seen I'll admit. Still much more legible than Beethoven, and at least he took out the time to write a fair copy. >.>