Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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Karl Henning

This is a fascinating process to observe, thank you all.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brahmsian

Yes!  With Sarge's vote, are we soon headed for Adagio heaven?  :)

mc ukrneal

Gosh. All this love for D1 - I went back to listen to it again. God-awful. This is as dull and lifeless as it was the first time! There are several problems: 1) They play on the back of the beat too often (so much so that it feels like they are slowing down). This is often a cardinal sin for me and makes the thing feel lackluster. This clearly isn't affecting others, but I don't understand why not.
2) The brass sound like they are playing through a haze. There is no brightness to them. I feel like they are playing through plastic wrap. It bothers the heck out of me. Not to mention, the horns have a sickly sound. The brass should shine in this movement, and they seem like they need a little polish.
3) There is no detail. Maybe this is what Sarge means when he says things are not spotlit. The problem is that it creates the feeling that there is no development. For example, the climax at 9-9:30 sounds so dull and back on its feet. It goes splat instead of transporting us. And it doesn't develop organically. It feels pasted in.
4) The tempo, despite being on the faster side, actually feels slow. I just couldn't wait for this to finish...again.

I could go on, but I think I am talking to myself on this one. A dreadful movement that you all seem to like...woe is me! :)
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

TheGSMoeller



Brian     Neal        Cato.   Sarge
D5           D3        D1.      D1
D3           D5        D5.      D6
D2           D2        D4.      D3
D1           D6        D6.      D5
D6           D4        D3.      D2
D4           D1        D2.      D4

Current Rankings
D1 - 12 pts
D2 - 7 pts
D3 - 13 pts
D4 - 4 pts
D5 - 15 pts
D6 - 9 pts


:o this might be more shocking than the last elimination! Unless someone else chimes in before sundown.
And I will be changing the names of the groups, D1 seems to have been found out (or has it?) but the groupings will remain the same.

Thank you all for the votes and scores!

Brahmsian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 17, 2014, 06:41:15 AM

Brian     Neal        Cato.   Sarge
D5           D3        D1.      D1
D3           D5        D5.      D6
D2           D2        D4.      D3
D1           D6        D6.      D5
D6           D4        D3.      D2
D4           D1        D2.      D4

Current Rankings
D1 - 12 pts
D2 - 7 pts
D3 - 13 pts
D4 - 4 pts
D5 - 15 pts
D6 - 9 pts


:o this might be more shocking than the last elimination! Unless someone else chimes in before sundown.
And I will be changing the names of the groups, D1 seems to have been found out (or has it?) but the groupings will remain the same.

Thank you all for the votes and scores!

I think that is a bloody fantastic idea, Greg!!  :)

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 17, 2014, 06:39:32 AM
Gosh. All this love for D1 - I went back to listen to it again. God-awful. This is as dull and lifeless as it was the first time! There are several problems: 1) They play on the back of the beat too often (so much so that it feels like they are slowing down). This is often a cardinal sin for me and makes the thing feel lackluster. This clearly isn't affecting others, but I don't understand why not.
2) The brass sound like they are playing through a haze. There is no brightness to them. I feel like they are playing through plastic wrap. It bothers the heck out of me. Not to mention, the horns have a sickly sound. The brass should shine in this movement, and they seem like they need a little polish.
3) There is no detail. Maybe this is what Sarge means when he says things are not spotlit. The problem is that it creates the feeling that there is no development. For example, the climax at 9-9:30 sounds so dull and back on its feet. It goes splat instead of transporting us. And it doesn't develop organically. It feels pasted in.
4) The tempo, despite being on the faster side, actually feels slow. I just couldn't wait for this to finish...again.

I could go on, but I think I am talking to myself on this one. A dreadful movement that you all seem to like...woe is me! :)

Interesting points, Neal, thank you for this. As the moderator of the comparison I will leave my comments out, but Neal offers a detailed insight into the performance, I hoping for a few responses from the two that helped D1 complete the comeback!


Ken B


Sergeant Rock


Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 17, 2014, 06:44:58 AM
Interesting points, Neal, thank you for this. As the moderator of the comparison I will leave my comments out, but Neal offers a detailed insight into the performance, I hoping for a few responses from the two that helped D1 complete the comeback!

Obviously Neal is somehow listening to a completely different performance than I am  ;)

Seriously, I cannot fathom Neal's objections. Usually I can understand and hear the differences others hear, but in this case I'm just flabbergasted. Jochum, dull and lifeless? WTF?  ;D  But hey, our differences are what make the comparisons so fun...and illuminating.

No time right now, but I'll try to give a more detailed rebuttal later.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Brahmsian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2014, 07:05:35 AM
Obviously Neal is somehow listening to a completely different performance than I am  ;)

Seriously, I cannot fathom Neal's objections. Usually I can understand and hear the differences others hear, but in this case I'm just flabbergasted. Jochum, dull and lifeless? WTF?  ;D  But hey, our differences are what make the comparisons so fun...and illuminating.

No time right now, but I'll try to give a more detailed rebuttal later.

Sarge

I thought you didn't like Jochum?  Perhaps D1 is Szell, your favourite conductor?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
I thought you didn't like Jochum?

True but there are exceptions (his last Concertgebouw Fifth; his Dresden Ninth; his Bavarian Second). But I would never characterize any performance I've heard of his as dull and lifeless. Just the opposite: they are usually too exciting, lacking a certain majesty. But I like this Sixth very much, at least in the context of the D group.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Ken B

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 17, 2014, 07:05:35 AM

Seriously... Jochum, dull and lifeless? WTF?  ;D

Jochum is gone, but his music lives on
And Kempe don't go shopping no more
You'll never meet Szell or Boehm again
And Maazel doesn't answer the door

Karajan and Celi used to chuckle and laugh
Whilst conducting a long symphony
But a dozen or so years later
There's very little of them left to see

They're decomposing conductors
There's nothing much anyone can do
You can still hear Abbado
But Abbado cannot hear you



TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Ken B on July 17, 2014, 07:53:39 AM
Jochum is gone, but his music lives on
And Kempe don't go shopping no more
You'll never meet Szell or Boehm again
And Maazel doesn't answer the door

Karajan and Celi used to chuckle and laugh
Whilst conducting a long symphony
But a dozen or so years later
There's very little of them left to see

They're decomposing conductors
There's nothing much anyone can do
You can still hear Abbado
But Abbado cannot hear you

And just one look from the dashing Paavo
Will make anyone stand from their chair and scream, Bravo!

Cato

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 17, 2014, 06:44:58 AM
Interesting points, Neal, thank you for this. As the moderator of the comparison I will leave my comments out, but Neal offers a detailed insight into the performance, I hoping for a few responses from the two that helped D1 complete the comeback!

Different ears!  ;)  Thanks to Neal for listening to the performance again!

D 1 is saved by Sarge to the rescue!!!  :D

If it is the Jochum DGG from the 1960's as I (and Sarge?) suspect, I have always found it a prime performance.

The tempo is just right, the dynamics are quite distinguishable, the build-ups to the climaxes are exciting, the more tender and meditative aspects do not sound perfunctory (like they are in some of the faster performances), and the brass chorales are powerful.

Again, if this is the Jochum, he does not monkey around with the dynamics either!   $:)  (He does monkey around with the tempo severely in his DGG recording of the Finale of the Fifth Symphony.)

I am in the middle of several projects, but hope to respond later with references to the Nowak score.

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Moonfish

"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Brahmsian

Quote from: Moonfish on July 17, 2014, 11:34:17 AM
This is better than the World Cup!    ;D ;D

:D  We are now shortly going on to the quarter-finals!  :)

Cato

Quote from: Moonfish on July 17, 2014, 11:34:17 AM
This is better than the World Cup!    ;D ;D

MUCH more excitement than Germany vs. Argentina, which was basically Germany vs. Germany anyway!   ??? ??? ???   0:)

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 11:36:48 AM
:D  We are now shortly going on to the quarter-finals!  :)

Go Team Go!

The Adagio beckons, one of the greatest movements ever!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Cato

From my (still unpublished) novel: The Seven Souls of Chaos: A Center of the Universe.  A young organist named Tom has excerpted the last minutes of the Adagio from Bruckner's Sixth Symphony and arranged it for the organ.  He plans on using it as a Communion meditation for the funeral of Fourth Grader.

The excerpt begins with the little funeral march a few minutes before the end:

QuoteSo then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it faded away into the blissful otherworld
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

TheGSMoeller

Group D - Round 1 Eliminations

Current Rankings

D5 - 15 pts
D3 - 13 pts
D1 - 12 pts
D6 - 9 pts
D2 - 7 pts
D4 - 4 pts


:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

D2




D4


TheGSMoeller

Once again, because I can't believe you have added the beloved Karajan to misfit island...

:( Let's begin the parade of the eliminated  :(....

 


Ken B

I am glad I am not part of THIS comparison!