Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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TheGSMoeller

All the talk in Bruckner's Abbey about the finale had me thinking that perhaps we should have done the finale for the second round. Perhaps that would have made scoring a bit easier?  8)

Moonfish

Quote from: Cato on July 19, 2014, 12:09:30 PM

Many thanks for taking the time to put everything together!

Here is a nice version of Bruckner Adagio Land!



Cato,

I now understand why you picked that picture as an analogy to the adagio.....     ???     :D
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Moonfish

Greg - my scores for the second round!

Bruckner 6 is a great symphony making this a difficult task.  Here goes...

D1
Opening builds well. The wind is haunting indeed and rises magically with the horns by 130 w/ good phrasing. Hesitant at 2min, but quickly followed by great playing and balance towards 4min.  Nice nexus at 5 min. Yum.  Very delicate and well phrased leading towards 7min. Great climax at 9-11. Powerful and enchanting.  Ends beautifully with a delicate whisper (almost like a beam of light). Nice!
Dreamy textures – well performed and maintaining an excellent balance between delicate and power throughout the movement. Charming and endearing! While listening I thought that this candidate simply has to move forward to the next round.  A few noises here and there in the live performance, but nothing that distracted from the power of the music making.  Does not seem like perfection, but I found it to be an excellent performance. Perhaps lacking in individualism..?

8.5/10


D2
The strings sound a bit deeper than D1. Early portion the wind instruments seem a bit aggressive relative to D1, but adds urgency to the opening. However, there is a bit of tameness in the buildup in this section that I did not like [1:45-2:15). The wind, string and horn sections seemed asynchronous in the section that followed (almost sounded like a synthesizer in my ears -  yikes). The strings were horrible here.  D1 had much more life and vividness (humanity) in this portion.  The orchestral soundscape is a bit sharp in my ears [5-7min], which bothered me a bit.  Powerful, but a bit edgy.    The orchestra had plenty of power, but I felt as if the Bruckner magic wasn't captured.   I warmed up to it towards the end of the movement being impressed with the subtle phrasing. Overall, I think it could have been performed better.

7/10


D3
I liked the start quite a bit.   Great timbre at the start followed by the haunting wind section. The buildup is indeed magical and well played.   The slower pacing at this point[2-3 min] is appropriate in my opinion.  The string section is perhaps a bit too sweet and honey-like [4min], but builds well.  Hesitant at 5-6 min and perhaps a bit too slow at this point.  Hmm.  Slow indeed. Catches up at a slow peak at 10 min. The previous slow weaving now allows one to appreciate the power , but it slows down again too quickly.  The pacing seems all off here. Beautiful, but sleepy.....Zzzzzzzzzzz.
A very good performance. Slow is good as it allows one to appreciate the phrasing of the music, but I felt as if it permeated the movement a bit too much.  Still, it was better than D2.  Perhaps this is perfect if one wants Bruckner at a slow pace? It was a bit too delicate – and definitely needed more umphhhh! Sweet poetic ending. Sloooooow. Better than D2 for sure.


8/10



D4
Great build up  at the start– the wind section sound like they are from a fairy world and build well towards the horns as they blend in.  Great control of the slow section at 2 min. Nice! Lovely buildup towards 3 min and shaping an engaging soundscape with both power and poetry by 4 min.  Phrases well at 430-530.  Brucknerian magic in place!  Doing well at 5-7min – seems like a scape of tonal questions and the orchestra does it very well.  Full-bodied with great sound!  Builds nicely at 830 – very Brucknerian. Yay!  I love this part [9-10] with its power.  A bit syrupy with the strings at 1030.  But forgiven as it builds so well here towards 11.  Slow and dreamy nicely paced after the peak.  I liked D4 quite a bit, but thought things were missing at times. Its orchestra and pacing easily places it before D3 and D2 in my mind.

9/10

For the top spot I debated between D4 and D1, but felt as if D4 had more of the things I enjoy in Bruckner so D4 it is.  It had plenty of magic in several places and great sound/orchestration.

My scores for round 2:

D4 > D1  >D3>  D2

"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Cato

Quote from: Moonfish on August 08, 2014, 11:36:09 PM
Cato,

I now understand why you picked that picture as an analogy to the adagio.....     ???     :D

I thought the picture "fit" in several ways!  0:)

Many thanks for your reviews of D Group: yes, it will become more difficult to choose a top recording now! 

Tomorrow I will deal with the A Group: too many things happening today!  But tomorrow I should have most of the day free.

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Brahmsian

Now that I've completed the Round 1 Schubert Quintet in C listen, I will be visiting the Group A Bruckner Adagio Heaven!   0:)

TheGSMoeller

Thank you for scores, Moonfish!

Looking forward to reading more comments! And I also need to get to my Schubert listening.

Brahmsian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 10, 2014, 07:11:48 AM
Thank you for scores, Moonfish!

Looking forward to reading more comments! And I also need to get to my Schubert listening.

Which Schubert group are you, Mr. Sock?  :)

Brian

C1. Beautiful pacing. The violins sound rather thin and glassy, but it sounds like compression of the sound file down to a tiny size, so that's not a problem with the recording. Overall, superb "Brucknerian" orchestra. Live recording? I heard a cough. Well, anyway, I love this recording. Almost understated, the last few minutes remind me of the adagio to Elgar 1? 8.5/10

C2. Again: spectacular. A "darker" orchestral sound, maybe, with a little stronger tilt toward cellos and bass? Slightly higher volume than C1, also. I think I like this slightly better than C1, but for no rational or explicable reason. Possibly those richer, deeper strings. Yeah, that's it. They are both so darn great. Last chord is a liiittle sloppy. 8.8/10

C3. I'm afraid this one is going to get short shrift among the voters. The older recording results in some clashing instruments - you can tell right from the very first climax, when everyone clamors to be heard over each other. But the unusually fast pace works beautifully, indeed flawlessly. This is an interpretation I will definitely seek out after the competition is over. The ending is the only place where its terseness makes me a little unsatisfied. Kudos for being unsentimental, though. 7/10

C4. Sloooooow. Perrrrrrfect. Maybe too slow? Is everything kind of disjointed? Or do I love this? I think I love it despite being aware of its flaws. The orchestra is superb. The final coda is perfection itself. My head tells me C2 is probably the best here, but my heart lies elsewhere. 9.5/10

C4
C2
C1
C3

Which recordings I want to advance: all  :(

By the way, this was the last movement of the symphony that I "figured out," and it's the one where I have the toughest standards. Or so I thought. Do I have really low standards, or is this the Group of Death?

Brahmsian

Quote from: Brian on August 10, 2014, 12:54:39 PM

By the way, this was the last movement of the symphony that I "figured out," and it's the one where I have the toughest standards. Or so I thought. Do I have really low standards, or is this the Group of Death?

I just finished my first run through of Group A, and that may indeed be the group of death.   :'( :'( :'( :'(  Four sublime performances, I wish I could put all four of them through to the next round.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

Brian

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 10, 2014, 02:21:04 PM
I just finished my first run through of Group A, and that may indeed be the group of death.   :'( :'( :'( :'(  Four sublime performances, I wish I could put all four of them through to the next round.  :'( :'( :'( :'(
Part of me really wants to hear this, but part of me dreads having to rate them!

Cato

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 10, 2014, 02:21:04 PM
I just finished my first run through of Group A, and that may indeed be the group of death.   :'( :'( :'( :'(  Four sublime performances, I wish I could put all four of them through to the next round.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

Yes, and two of the performances in Group A (I will predict) are done...

by the same conductor!!!   ??? ??? ??? :D :D :D   * (See spoiler down below!   0:)  )

In reverse order:

A 4 - Everything is perfect!  The tempo is perfect, the dynamics, the big Bruckner sound, the plaintive expressivity in the oboe.  The climaxes are powerful: listen to the near hysteria in the strings at the central climax, and how the brass rise up to calm them down, and then everything is united to become more positive.  The little funeral march is twice played with dark tragedy (check out the violas), and after the second time the ineffably beautiful ending is played in an ineffably beautiful fashion.

A 3 - Again, the big Bruckner sound is heard in the fullness of the strings right at the opening.  The oboe is perhaps not quite on the same level of pathos as in A 4, but the brass and strings make up for it.  Tempo is somewhat slower than in A 4, but quite acceptable.  There is great clarity in the lines most of the time, and like in A 4 the funeral march sections are most excellent.  The lower brass sound "raw" somewhat at times, but that - oddly - only adds to the drama!   The level of intensity in the last pages is not quite on the same level as A 4, but still a great performance.

A 2 - Another excellent version!  The A Group really is the "Group of Death" !   ;)   Tempo is about the same as in A 4.  The clarity of the lines and of the whole recording is excellent (from a concert performance? I believe there is some occasional, but negligible, audience noise, unless it is from the orchestra: you can occasionally hear inhaled breaths.)  The intensity and epic sound needed for this movement - and for any Bruckner performance! - are both present throughout!  Somebody in the horns has the slightest bobble in one of the central climaxes, but again it is negligible. The final pages are performed quite well, but perhaps not quite to the same degree as A 4 or 3, although I did like the way the oboe stands out near the end!

A 1 - The fastest of the four recordings, but it does not sound particularly rushed.  The sound is excellent: listen to the cellos and basses at the beginning!  The hall has a big echoing resonance, which is marvelous for the work!  The funeral march is played with the requisite sadness: the middle voices are brought out especially well.  The drama of the central section is really marvelous! 

Very difficult to choose, and I can easily understand why somebody might like A 1 or A 2 or A 3 as the top recording of the four.  In fact, I can understand any arrangement of the group!

So here goes:

A 4

A 3

A 1

A 2






*  Spoiler below:


I am practically positive that A 4 and A 3 are the DGG and EMI recordings by Eugen Jochum.






"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

TheGSMoeller

Lookout! Cato spoilers!   8)
And you're only half right. But don't try to guess which one is right!!  ;D

Thank you for the scores and comments, Brian & Cato, fantastic as usual.

Cato

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 11, 2014, 04:42:28 PM
Lookout! Cato spoilers!   8)
And you're only half right. But don't try to guess which one is right!!  ;D

Thank you for the scores and comments, Brian & Cato, fantastic as usual.

Aha!  Well, so I am batting.500!  I suspect I am right about A 4!   ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Brahmsian

Here are my votes for Group A - The stab at thy heart Adagio x 4.  Seriously, Greg??  Are you trying to kill me with these??  4 absolutely lovely, breathtaking performances of the Adagio.   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

This was so difficult, it was like chosing which knife to stab myself with!  :( :( :( :(

Vote, from favourite to less favourite:

A3
A4
A2
A1


Wow, I've listened to these, twice.  I need my Mommy now.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 11, 2014, 05:28:37 PM
Here are my votes for Group A - The stab at thy heart Adagio x 4.  Seriously, Greg??  Are you trying to kill me with these??  4 absolutely lovely, breathtaking performances of the Adagio.   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

This was so difficult, it was like chosing which knife to stab myself with!  :( :( :( :(

Vote, from favourite to less favourite:

A3
A4
A2
A1


Wow, I've listened to these, twice.  I need my Mommy now.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

Soooooo I shouldn't ask you later if you want to listen to another group?  :'(  8) 

Thank you much for your scores, Ray. Go eat some ice cream, that should cheer you up.  ;D

Cato

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 11, 2014, 05:28:37 PM
Here are my votes for Group A - The stab at thy heart Adagio x 4.  Seriously, Greg??  Are you trying to kill me with these??  4 absolutely lovely, breathtaking performances of the Adagio.   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

This was so difficult, it was like choosing which knife to stab myself with!  :( :( :( :(

Wow, I've listened to these, twice.  I need my Mommy now.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

Group A!  The Group of Death and/or Motherly Consolation!   :laugh:

What about that eccentric Scherzo?   8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Brahmsian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 11, 2014, 06:27:18 PM
Soooooo I shouldn't ask you later if you want to listen to another group?  :'(  8) 


You cruel, cruel Monkey!!  ;D  Don't think I could handle it.  :)

Now, I'm going to have to brace myself for the Schubert Quintet Scherzo blind listen.   :'(

Brahmsian

Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2014, 06:37:19 PM
Group A!  The Group of Death and/or Motherly Consolation!   :laugh:

Oh, indeed.  That was the most difficult grouping I've ever had to judge in a 'blind listen comparison'.  There were no obvious, outright winners.  Yet, they all were winners.

Is there a 'wild card' option to bring all of group A into the next round?  :D

TheGSMoeller

I figured I would go with a 2-5 point range since there doesn't seem to be any Adagio performances getting a bad review. This way even the last place score gets 2 points to assist in a possible advancement if it also receives a first place vote.

Group A
Cato           ChamberNut

A4             A3 - 9 pts. total
A3             A4 - 9 pts. total
A1             A2 - 5 pts. total
A2             A1 - 5 pts. total


Group B
Neal
B1 - 5 pts
B3 - 4 pts
B4 - 3 pts
B2 - 2 pts

Group C
Brian
C4 - 5 pts
C2 - 4 pts
C1 - 3 pts
C3 - 2 pts


Group D
Moonfish
D4 - 5 pts
D1 - 4 pts
D3 - 3 pts
D2 - 2 pts

Trout

#339
Mathematically speaking, you would get the same results if you used 1-4 points as if you used 2-5 points since all the recordings are "gaining" an extra point per vote, meaning that point does not change the point differential among them (which is the only thing that really matters in this system). The extra point would be, thus, inconsequential.

But never mind my pedantry, carry on! I am rather enjoying all the comments and seeing which of our beloved recordings gets the ax next.  >:D