Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

[Brahmsian]

I figured I would go with a 2-5 point range since there doesn't seem to be any Adagio performances getting a bad review. This way even the last place score gets 2 points to assist in a possible advancement if it also receives a first place vote.

Group A
Cato           ChamberNut
A4             A3 - 9 pts. total
A3             A4 - 9 pts. total
A1             A2 - 5 pts. total
A2             A1 - 5 pts. total


Group B
Neal
B1 - 5 pts
B3 - 4 pts
B4 - 3 pts
B2 - 2 pts

Group C
Brian
C4 - 5 pts
C2 - 4 pts
C1 - 3 pts
C3 - 2 pts


Group D
Moonfish
D4 - 5 pts
D1 - 4 pts
D3 - 3 pts
D2 - 2 pts

Greg, if there is a tie breaker situation in any of the groups (say between 2nd and 3rd spot in a group), I'll volunteer to listen to that group (or the two that are in a tie-breaking situation).

[TheGSMoeller]

Mathematically speaking, you would get the same results if you used 1-4 points as if you used 2-5 points since all the recordings are "gaining" an extra point per vote, meaning that point does not change the point differential among them (which is the only thing that really matters in this system). The extra point would be, thus, inconsequential.

But never mind my pedantry, carry on! I am rather enjoying all the comments and seeing which of our beloved recordings gets the ax next. 

Don't be shy, speak up! I can't read that small text anyway. 

This is true. I thought of that after posting the scores, I originally was thinking this was the round I was going to combine the total points from each round, but it's for the next one.

Feel free to join, Trout. I could send you a Group...or two. 

[TheGSMoeller]

Greg, if there is a tie breaker situation in any of the groups (say between 2nd and 3rd spot in a group), I'll volunteer to listen to that group (or the two that are in a tie-breaking situation).

Thank you, Ray. 

[Brian]

D1: God this one is great too! Or, maybe, as Moonfish says, it's not quite as distinctive as some - and yet the playing is so consistently beautiful, and the final coda so aching, so heartfelt, that I am captivated. Wonderful. 9/10

D2: Is this Norrington? (I could be wrong; I'm guessing after 21 seconds.) (Note from later: Nope, there's no way I'm wrong. It is.) The violins seem dead set against using any vibrato in the opening bars. Why? The string tone is just too needlessly coarse. In a way I'm very happy to finally have a performance I dislike and can give a low score! Around 10:30 the violins are just so unpretty. Near the end, the big string swell which was so massively affecting and moving in D1 is here - but it makes the tiniest of ripples, not even registering emotionally. I think in hindsight I will add a half-point to my score for D1 - and subtract a few more from this. The last fadeout is excellent, though! 3/10

D3: Now this is more like it! Haunting timpani strokes at 5:50, but overall I'm maybe slightly less engaged than with D1. Brass entrances are not always subtle. Love the low double bass: they sound like an organ. Overall, nice, but one has to draw the line somewhere. 7/10

D4: Note to D2: if you're going to play fairly quickly, this is the way to do it. A fairly flexible account, compared to some. And the orchestra exudes an old-world Germanic majesty, making me wonder instantly if this is from Berlin or Dresden. Man, this orchestra has great trumpets. Overall, I love the gorgeous sound of this orchestra, but will choose D1 for its more heart-on-sleeve lyricism and impact. 8/10

D1
D4
D3
D2

[Trout]

Feel free to join, Trout. I could send you a Group...or two. 

Sure, I suppose it cannot hurt even if I may not have the time in the next few days (unless someone would like to help me with my Communications paper ).

[TheGSMoeller]

Group A
Cato           ChamberNut
A4             A3 - 9 pts.
A3             A4 - 9 pts.
A1             A2 - 5 pts.
A2             A1 - 5 pts.


Group B
Neal
B1 - 5 pts
B3 - 4 pts
B4 - 3 pts
B2 - 2 pts

Group C
Brian
C4 - 5 pts
C2 - 4 pts
C1 - 3 pts
C3 - 2 pts


Group D
Moonfish             Brian
D4                         D1 - 9 pts
D1                         D4 - 9 pts
D3                         D3 - 6 pts
D2                         D2 - 4 pts

[amw]

D1 - Beautiful, middle-of-the-road... not much else to say for me. Except that at one point the trumpets have that wobbly Soviet-style vibrato which is always a bit endearing. Nothing really special for me though

D2 - Gorgeous strings, which immediately kick it up a notch from D1, and lots of character—the most "willful" interpretation and those always seem to do well by me. There are many odd moments (e.g. intrusive violas at 2 before letter K) which seem designed primarily to disabuse us of the notion that this is some big Celibidache Adagio and only secondarily to illuminate the music, but the clarity of the lines is superb and the orchestra sounds pretty great. It's far from "HIP", I imagine Bruckner purists won't like this, but I like many of the interpretive choices. What else can I say? Character!

D3 - Over-the-top, almost to the point of camp. Still pretty entertaining, especially the Largo funeral march at letter D, which could be Mahler's 12th Symphony. Overall I'm not sold though. Lines don't have very good definition, phrasing doesn't hold my interest.

D4 - Perfect phrasing. Literally perfect. Also perfect balance. This group really gets letter B right by balancing the violins and cellos equally, instead of letting the cellos take over and drown out the equally important version of the main theme* in the violins. Similarly, the change to Largo at 5 after C is observed more strictly, as are (most of) Bruckner's dynamic indications, so I'll call this "HIP" Bruckner. Perhaps it's not as daring or characterful as D2, but it's also less egotistical—an "everyday" version as opposed to a "special occasions" version, one that can be lived with, as it were.

So: D4 is objectively the best, but I do like D2 almost as much, and more in some passages (particularly those in which the strings play alone—I think D2's string section is lovely, Brian and Moonfish are clearly deluded). So I will abuse my powers to give it a chance at survival.

#1 - D2
#2 - D4
#3 - D1
#4 - D3

* Side note: The two main themes of the Adagio are variations of the main theme of the first movement! I don't know if anyone else noticed this while listening, or maybe that's just common knowledge and I only didn't know because I never listen to Bruckner.

and for that matter

(the lower voice—here the cellos—being modified, I think, in order to allow the upper voice to come into relief)

(not to mention the relationship of the 2nd bar of the Adagio to the 2nd bar of the Majestoso's main theme)

[Cato]

* Side note: The two main themes of the Adagio are variations of the main theme of the first movement! I don't know if anyone else noticed this while listening, or maybe that's just common knowledge and I only didn't know because I never listen to Bruckner.

and for that matter

(the lower voice—here the cellos—being modified, I think, in order to allow the upper voice to come into relief)

(not to mention the relationship of the 2nd bar of the Adagio to the 2nd bar of the Majestoso's main theme)

Yes, very good!  You have deduced some of Bruckner's tricks for keeping things unified, despite the length of some of the symphonies!

I will be reporting this afternoon - I hope! - on Group C: assorted problems have delayed me again.  My left ear has a severe infection, causing a low humming at various levels of volume, i.e. it sounds at times like I am standing next to a blowing, medium-sized air conditioner.   

Right now, the tinnitus has subsided to where I can ignore it.

[TheGSMoeller]

Thank you for the scores, amw.

I'm willing to move on with only 2 scores per group, although I would really prefer 3 scores.

Next round will combine to only 2 groups with the Scherzo and will combine scores from previous rounds.

[Cato]

Okay, here we go!

C 1 - A live performance, with very little audience noise.  We have a strong orchestra here, with good pacing, and the oboe's plaintive song is handled quite well.  The dialogue between the clarinet and the oboe was also nicely done, as were the central portions, with the requisite big swelling brass.  For some reason, the final pages were not rendered as strongly: they were good, perhaps even very good, but a little too subdued for me.  (Compare to A 4 or A 3.)

C 2 - Another live performance with audience noise right at the beginning, and at other sections, more obvious than in C 1.  But...wow!  What a huge sound from the orchestra, especially the cellos and basses!  Brian is quite right!  More stately than C 1, and the expression and clarity in the strings are particularly striking in the opening pages.  Dynamics are done well.  The little funeral march is played with almost too much vibrato the first time around. (Its return in the final section is played without this feature.)  The central climax builds very nicely!  In the final pages, the dialogue in the strings seemed a little perfunctory, but the oboe's few notes are done quite well.  The final page is about as heavenly as it can be.  A wee bit of wobbliness in the strings right around the end.

C 3 - A "bright" recording, which seems to be heavy on the treble!  And yes, there is some tape hiss, as Brian pointed out.  And the tempo is somewhat faster than with the other candidates, but quite acceptable.  This faster tempo gives a somewhat "sprightly" feel to certain passages, thereby contrasting quite well the somber moments, like the funeral march, which I found almost too fast.  It isn't, but some might consider it improper.  The clarity of the lines is extremely good.  The central section is big, but one might quibble that the faster tempo lessens its impact.  And the final pages are quite fine: wistful, hopeful, and elegant.

C 4 - The slowest of them all, so one might immediately think of "Celi" here!      But this is not so slow that incoherence in the lines results!  The result is a heightening of the expression in certain parts, and listen to those string dialogues, and the attention to accents and dynamics!!!  Here is someone who knows what Bruckner meant when he wrote pianissimo in the score!  The build-ups to the central climaxes are masterpieces in clarity, and the final pages are also nicely done, resigned in tone, not as dramatic as in some other versions, but still a fine way to hear the music.

I believe I agree completely with Brian!


C 4

C 2

C 1

C 3

[TheGSMoeller]

So as of now D2 and D3 would be eliminated, I did send Group D to Sarge as well but he hasn't done the listening    I was going to wait to see if he wanted to listen to these, however the outcome is already determined, the only possible change could be a tie between D2 (if it received another 5pts) and D1(if it received another 2 pts) but the tiebreaker is combined points from the previous round giving the victory to D1.

Perhaps Sarge would like Group B?   

So, if there are no objections to this, then I will post Group D eliminations later this evening.

Group D
Moonfish           Brian          amw
D4                    D1                  D2 - 9 pts
D1                    D4                  D4 - 13 pts
D3                    D3                  D1 - 12 pts
D2                    D2                  D3 - 8 pts

[TheGSMoeller]

Updated C - this is becoming the most interesting group so far, I like the way it's headed.

Group C
Brian         Cato
C4              C4 - 10 pts
C2              C2 - 8 pts
C1              C1 - 6 pts
C3              C3 - 4 pts

[amw]

I can try to do Group B sometime in the next few days (though no guarantee). Any group with me, mc ukrneal and Sarge in it should yield interesting results

[mc ukrneal]

I can do one more group as well, either tomorrow or Friday if you want.

[TheGSMoeller]

new PMs sent. 

Since two beers did me in last night it will be another day before Group D's eliminations are revealed.

[Brian]

Since two beers did me in last night it will be another day before Group D's eliminations are revealed.

I hope they were strong beers...!

[TheGSMoeller]

I hope they were strong beers...!

Brooklyn Lager, not strong, but delicious.
Sooo we'll blame it on being tired then. yeah, that's the ticket.

[Sergeant Rock]

Since the D group fate is already decided, I won't spend too much time commenting. Briefly:

1 - D2  I know this (Brian was correct); one of my favorites. I tried to maintain objectivity but probably failed. The older I get the more I want Bruckner slow movements to move along at a good clip. This conductor, more than any other, has weened me from my decades long "slow is better in Bruckner" obsession. The lack of vibrato somehow works (like amw, I love the string sound and find, in comparison, the strings in the other D competitors to be as mushy as pablum). I love the orchestral balance. The woodwinds really stand out; the horn at 6:25 makes obvious the Beethoven quote (or was Bruckner prescient, anticipating the Bernstein Broadway tune from 1957?  ). Love the skeletal sound here of the funeral march

2 - D1  Objectively the best performance...but as I said, objectivity failed me in this group.

3 - D3  I do believe Robert Simpson was correct, that you can't play this movement too slowly, but I simply became impatient with it. The conductor loved it to death.

4 - D4  I do not like the balance at the beginning...the strings swamp the woodwind; that plaintive oboe melody unfortunately buried (relative to D2). The string dominance continued, even obliterating the brass at some points. It put me off the entire performance.


Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Since the D group fate is already decided, I won't spend too much time commenting. Briefly:

1 - D2  I know this (Brian was correct); one of my favorites. I tried to maintain objectivity but probably failed. The older I get the more I want Bruckner slow movements to move along at a good clip. This conductor, more than any other, has weened me from my decades long "slow is better in Bruckner" obsession. The lack of vibrato somehow works (like amw, I love the string sound and find, in comparison, the strings in the other D competitors to be as mushy as pablum). I love the orchestral balance. The woodwinds really stand out; the horn at 6:25 makes obvious the Beethoven quote (or was Bruckner prescient, anticipating the Bernstein Broadway tune from 1957?  ). Love the skeletal sound here of the funeral march

2 - D1  Objectively the best performance...but as I said, objectivity failed me in this group.

3 - D3  I do believe Robert Simpson was correct, that you can't play this movement too slowly, but I simply became impatient with it. The conductor loved it to death.

4 - D4  I do not like the balance at the beginning...the strings swamp the woodwind; that plaintive oboe melody unfortunately buried (relative to D2). The string dominance continued, even obliterating the brass at some points. It put me off the entire performance.


Sarge

Thank you! However another D vote might actually turn this one, I'll have to calculate later....

[TheGSMoeller]

Group D
Moonfish           Brian          amw                          Sarge
D4                    D1                  D2                       D2 - 14 pts
D1                    D4                  D4                       D1 - 17 pts
D3                    D3                  D1 -                     D3 - 11 pts
D2                    D2                  D3                       D4 - 15 pts


There could potintially be a change in the eliminations if there was another vote, but the original three i sent the links to have voted and Brian joined in as well, so I will wait until tomorrow morning to hear from any one else who's interested, other wise I'll reveal the two eliminated.