Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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mc ukrneal

C Group:

C1 - Very fast to start, which I like, but does not really make so much of the rise and fall. It's a bit reserved. Some rubato before launching into the beautiful next section. This orchestra has a beautiful sound for Bruckner, mostly because of brass and lower pitched instruments. The build up to the early climax is spine tingling good, though the actual peak is not as full and awesome as it could be, so a slight disappointment there. Middle build up and climax misses the mark, though it has a nice sway to it. Probably would have been last in my B group ranking if this were there. I think it misses some nuance and detail compared to the best (though the overall line is well done).  Ranking: ??

C2 - Beautiful start. The first crescendo is 'meh', but the climax itself is satisfying. This one seems to be a bit more flexible on tempo, which I like - allows for some bits to be emphasized and such. Middle climax seems to start well, but this conductor just doesn't let it go all the way - build that climax and unleash the fury dammit. I find this just isn't satisfying. Ranking: ??

C3 - Now here is a start with intensity, and it is positively flying, but oh, here's a group that finally know what they are doing in the C group!  The rubato and the vibrato are so well integrated. You might think this one was cold and all business (because it is so fast), but it is exactly the opposite - warm and feeling. But then at 6.54 there is some technical fault - oh major bummerness! Until that moment, nearly ideal.   And the middle climax is expertly done. SO here is an interesting conundrum. THis version is the class of the group in terms of performance. But there is a technical fault in the middle where music is lost (like the skip of a record to some degree). Does this fault mean it should be at the bottom despite being a FAR better performance than C1 and C2 (and maybe C4 - yet to hear) or should I ignore that and put it above them? Because, this is version that just oozes Bruckner. Ahh, what a choice!! Ranking: ??

C4 - Dark, intense opening, but much (much) slower. Woodwinds almost drowned out at the beginning (and they seem to miss notes in other area too) - you really need to hear those above or part of the impact is lost. Rubato is very extreme within some phrases - very unusual. I think the conductor focuses a bit too much on the beauty of the moment and not enough on connections in the music. As a result, it drags and drags and drags, and...would you believe I listened to B1 several times and yet here I cannot wait for the suffering to end? By the time you get to the middle climax, who cares. Ranking: Last, regardless!

Ok, so the issue is what to do with C3, but does a technical issue make it an automatic lower ranking? And the answer is...for me...no. The reason is that despite the issue, I'd STILL rather hear C3 than any of the others by a significant margin!! So that means C3 is first and C4 is last (would be last of any version I have ever heard I think).  C1 and C2 both have some issues, but I think I'd rather listen to C1 than C2.

So final order is C3, C1, C2, C4.

By the way, if we were using the Schubert methodology C3 would be a yea/Thumbs up, C1 and C2 would be a meh, and C4 would be a humungous THUMBS DOWN.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Brian on August 10, 2014, 12:54:39 PM
C1. Beautiful pacing. The violins sound rather thin and glassy, but it sounds like compression of the sound file down to a tiny size, so that's not a problem with the recording. Overall, superb "Brucknerian" orchestra. Live recording? I heard a cough. Well, anyway, I love this recording. Almost understated, the last few minutes remind me of the adagio to Elgar 1? 8.5/10

C2. Again: spectacular. A "darker" orchestral sound, maybe, with a little stronger tilt toward cellos and bass? Slightly higher volume than C1, also. I think I like this slightly better than C1, but for no rational or explicable reason. Possibly those richer, deeper strings. Yeah, that's it. They are both so darn great. Last chord is a liiittle sloppy. 8.8/10

C3. I'm afraid this one is going to get short shrift among the voters. The older recording results in some clashing instruments - you can tell right from the very first climax, when everyone clamors to be heard over each other. But the unusually fast pace works beautifully, indeed flawlessly. This is an interpretation I will definitely seek out after the competition is over. The ending is the only place where its terseness makes me a little unsatisfied. Kudos for being unsentimental, though. 7/10

C4. Sloooooow. Perrrrrrfect. Maybe too slow? Is everything kind of disjointed? Or do I love this? I think I love it despite being aware of its flaws. The orchestra is superb. The final coda is perfection itself. My head tells me C2 is probably the best here, but my heart lies elsewhere. 9.5/10

C4
C2
C1
C3

Which recordings I want to advance: all  :(

By the way, this was the last movement of the symphony that I "figured out," and it's the one where I have the toughest standards. Or so I thought. Do I have really low standards, or is this the Group of Death?
Holy cowsers! We weren't just 'not on the same page', but we were in different freaking galaxies! C4!?!?! Are you kidding me! Holy moly. Perfection?!?! Oh my. Breathe...ukrneal...just breathe....

Our rankings were exactly the opposite. We'll need some help on this one for sure!!!!!!

By the way, I am not allergic to slow, as the winner for the B group (for me) was 2 minutes slower than C4.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

TheGSMoeller

 $:) * WARNING * PLEASE READ  $:)

It has been brought to my attention that file C2 still has the cover attached, I will send out new C2 links to those that I sent Group C to. Please let me know if you have the original PM sent with all 4 Group C links, I haven't been saving my sent PMs so I may miss someone.


TheGSMoeller

Thanks, Neal, for the scores!  ;D

Updated C -

Group C
Neal
C3
C1
C2
C4

Brian         Cato
C4              C4 - 12 pts
C2              C2 - 11 pts
C1              C1 - 10 pts
C3              C3 - 9 pts

I still have more Group C's out there, if my math is correct there is a potential for a 4-way tie if only one more score gets posted!  ???  8)

mc ukrneal

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 21, 2014, 02:54:03 AM
Thanks, Neal, for the scores!  ;D

Updated C -

Group C
Neal
C3
C1
C2
C4

Brian         Cato
C4              C4 - 12 pts
C2              C2 - 11 pts
C1              C1 - 10 pts
C3              C3 - 9 pts

I still have more Group C's out there, if my math is correct there is a potential for a 4-way tie if only one more score gets posted!  ???  8)
WHAT?!?!?!?! Cato voted for C4 too!!??! But see, I expect that from him - we have already established that he is sometimes Sarge! :) But Brian - he was one of the good guys and not yet on the dark side! Alas, it may be too late...we may have lost him...
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Brian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 21, 2014, 02:44:04 AM
$:) * WARNING * PLEASE READ  $:)

It has been brought to my attention that file C2 still has the cover attached, I will send out new C2 links to those that I sent Group C to. Please let me know if you have the original PM sent with all 4 Group C links, I haven't been saving my sent PMs so I may miss someone.

Oh. See, I was using Windows Media Player and WMP always invents artist info using its horrible, horrible version of Gracenote. Thus several of the tracks from the first round of this game were labeled by WMP as being tracks from obscure post-punk bands. So I assumed that that info was completely false.

Yay!

Karl Henning

Whoa, Bruckner played by post-punk bands?  What a groooovy project!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brian

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2014, 03:29:35 AM
WHAT?!?!?!?! Cato voted for C4 too!!??! But see, I expect that from him - we have already established that he is sometimes Sarge! :) But Brian - he was one of the good guys and not yet on the dark side! Alas, it may be too late...we may have lost him...

Please be aware that I loved all four C group recordings and, if possible, I would like all four of them to advance.

C3, "the fast one," is a perfect example of how to be fast, economical, and unsentimental without being insensitive. Norrington could have learned from it, since he makes all the mistakes C3 avoids, and fails to achieve the best highs of C3's interpretation.

Ken B

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 04:37:49 AM
Whoa, Bruckner played by post-punk bands?  What a groooovy project!
Crossover baby!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 04:37:49 AM
Whoa, Bruckner played by post-punk bands?  What a groooovy project!

Bruckner: Symphony No. 10 in C Minor, "Venus in Fur"

Cato

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2014, 03:29:35 AM
WHAT?!?!?!?! Cato voted for C4 too!!??! But see, I expect that from him - we have already established that he is sometimes Sarge! :) But Brian - he was one of the good guys and not yet on the dark side! Alas, it may be too late...we may have lost him...

Heh-heh!   :D  And sometimes vice versa! 8)

I easily understand any arrangement here, and can see why the slowest (is it Celibidache and his Munich oompah-pah band?) would not rank first with some.  I must admit: I was highly skeptical when I saw the file break 20 minutes! 

But at the end: it worked!  And somewhat better than the c. 16-minute C 3.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 21, 2014, 08:17:10 AM
Bruckner: Symphony No. 10 in C Minor, "Venus in Fur"

It would be a fur fur better thing to hear than one might have ever heard!   ???
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Karl Henning

Cato is not Sarge, but they are both Buckeyes!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brahmsian

Can't wait to see the revelation of the "outs" for the Adagio Round 2.  Should be interesting!  :)

Cato

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 08:34:22 AM
Cato is not Sarge, but they are both Buckeyes!

Amen!  "Cleveland RAWKS!"   8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 21, 2014, 08:38:37 AM
Can't wait to see the revelation of the "outs" for the Adagio Round 2.  Should be interesting!  :)

You 'n' me both, brother!   :o   0:)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Brian

Quote from: Cato on August 21, 2014, 08:32:22 AM
I easily understand any arrangement here, and can see why the slowest (is it Celibidache and his Munich oompah-pah band?) would not rank first with some.  I must admit: I was highly skeptical when I saw the file break 20 minutes! 
I think Celi is actually even slower! But I'm not certain. Maybe it is him after all...

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Cato on August 21, 2014, 08:32:22 AM
I easily understand any arrangement here, and can see why the slowest (is it Celibidache and his Munich oompah-pah band?) would not rank first with some.  I must admit: I was highly skeptical when I saw the file break 20 minutes! 
You should hear B1. I placed it first in the group, but it is 2 minutes longer than C4 (at 22 min). Yet C4 feels much slower to me.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Cato

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2014, 11:32:05 AM
You should hear B1. I placed it first in the group, but it is 2 minutes longer than C4 (at 22 min). Yet C4 feels much slower to me.

Okay!  So would you say one's perception of the expression or the intensity trumps tempo in this case?
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 20, 2014, 07:30:44 PM
Group D
Moonfish           Brian          amw                          Sarge
D4                    D1                  D2                       D2 - 14 pts
D1                    D4                  D4                       D1 - 17 16 pts
D3                    D3                  D1 -                     D3 - 11 pts
D2                    D2                  D3                       D4 - 15 pts



I miss counted, D1 has 16 points, not 17, but that didn't change anything, Group D is closed, wait for it....


TheGSMoeller

Group D eliminations...


D2

Uncle Woger, a performance that is enjoyed by Sarge and myself. Just barely missed the cut, but I knew it would divide listeners...




D3

Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken


mc ukrneal

Quote from: Cato on August 21, 2014, 12:41:08 PM
Okay!  So would you say one's perception of the expression or the intensity trumps tempo in this case?
Tempo is merely the vehicle. I may prefer a certain tempo, but a well executed piece (regardless of tempo) is certainly more important.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!