Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

[Sergeant Rock]

Group D eliminations...


D2

Uncle Woger, a performance that is enjoyed by Sarge and myself. Just barely missed the cut, but I knew it would divide listeners...

In the first round (where it was A4) amw was the only one who gave it a high score (a second place) but Ray, Pim and L/W didn't seem to dislike it either (few negative comments) although they all placed it fourth (of six). That was high enough to keep it in play though. amw stayed consistent, placing it first in the second round. I wonder if it might not have been eliminated had those three been in the second round D group too.

Sarge

[Brian]

In the first round (where it was A4) amw was the only one who gave it a high score (a second place) but Ray, Pim and L/W didn't seem to dislike it either (few negative comments) although they all placed it fourth (of six). That was high enough to keep it in play though. amw stayed consistent, placing it first in the second round. I wonder if it might not have been eliminated had those three been in the second round D group too.

Sarge

I can't speak for them, but as I posted on the previous page, tempo and phrasing aren't the problems with Norrington for me; the problem is the denial of vibrato, and that's the biggest factor in the adagio. In fast movements, I would probably like him a lot more.

[Pim]

Given the standings (sorry, couldn't help noticing), my first attention went to C3 and C4. Both great, and although I preferred the clarinet & hobo in C4 more than in C3 (that may be due to the sound of C3, not the playing), the tempo difference does it: C4 is just too slow to my taste. Beautifully done, but far from as gripping as C3. Especially at the pp and ppp moments, I got this sense of almost losing track.
So C3 > C4
Then C1, which turned out to be the most convincing for me, right tempo, great urgency, especially around 9.00 (section G in my score, with "Tempo I" indicated). What a build up. Simply marvelous.
C2 I liked least, oboe standing out too much, orchestra almost harsh. I do appreciate the way details are made to stand out, e.g. just before the Grave, around 4.40 (sehr ruhig, ohne zu schleppen), but then the funeral march following that isn't mournful. Just not adding up for me.
In short: C1 > C3 > C4 > C1

[Sergeant Rock]

I can't speak for them, but as I posted on the previous page, tempo and phrasing aren't the problems with Norrington for me; the problem is the denial of vibrato, and that's the biggest factor in the adagio. In fast movements, I would probably like him a lot more.

I've done a 180 concerning vibrato. Although I still think Norrington's theory is BS (that orchestras didn't employ vibrato until the mid-20th century), in practice I've come to appreciate the lean sound of the LCP and Stuttgart strings. Not only in Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, but Mendelssohn, Smetana...Wagner! I don't always prefer it but it's a valid alternative for me now...even in Romantic-era slow movements.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

. . . I've come to appreciate the lean sound of the LCP and Stuttgart strings. Not only in Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, but Mendelssohn, Smetana...Wagner! I don't always prefer it but it's a valid alternative for me now...even in Romantic-era slow movements.

Sarge

Same here.

[TheGSMoeller]

Very well put, Sarge.

And thank you for the scores, Pim.

[Brian]

I've done a 180 concerning vibrato. Although I still think Norrington's theory is BS (that orchestras didn't employ vibrato until the mid-20th century), in practice I've come to appreciate the lean sound of the LCP and Stuttgart strings. Not only in Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, but Mendelssohn, Smetana...Wagner! I don't always prefer it but it's a valid alternative for me now...even in Romantic-era slow movements.

Sarge

I think I like a modified version of this philosophy: that vibrato is a spice, like cayenne or cilantro, that you should not use all the time, but you should definitely use some of the time, otherwise it would lose its effect. Or another example would be "bad words" 

So in my book, vibrato is like dropping the f-bomb... a weapon to be deployed strategically.

[amw]

I only hate vibrato in vocal music, but in instrumental music it seems that usually performances with less vibrato do more for me.

Also, for some reason I always seem to like Norrington better than Gardiner, Brüggen or Immerseel when I'm blind comparing, though he's not as well regarded as they are in some quarters (did my own personal b/c with the Eroica, ended up listening through the entire LCP set and finding it some of the best Beethoven I'd heard). Harnoncourt is also a favourite but he's practically MI by now, with all those Berlin Phil recordings.

B1 - Funereal, with the very slow tempo creating almost painful tension and suspense on its own; a unique and unrepeatable interpretation. Not a cough or rustle from the live audience until long after the movement's over. I wonder if they're holding their breath; were I there, I probably would be. >.> The conductor can hold a long line together, and the clarity of the lines and inner parts lends interest to the performance. However the funeral marches lose their march quality altogether. In other passages the rock-steady slow tempo combined with Bruckner's obsession with fitting everything into 4- and 8-bar phrases yields a hypnotic effect; the build-up to the coda, with soft string figures and horn chords over a deep sustained note, gains a massive amount of tension without needing to ramp up the dynamics as B2 and B4 do simply by refusing to move forwards. Definitely held my attention throughout, though I was fidgeting and playing with my hair quite a bit.

B2 - Another slow performance that fails where B1 succeeded by simply not committing to its very slow tempo, speeding up with every crescendo and increase in surface tension. The result was a lack of command over the long lines. My mind wandered a good deal more during this performance. Some ugly vibrato from the violins (damn you Woger) didn't help either.

B3 - A more extraverted performance, deserving of special mention for its funeral march section, as well as for more successfully capturing the variegated moods of the movement than B1 did. Not as dramatic though, and with some rather distracting changes in tempo.

B4 - I spoke too soon; this has distracting changes in tempo, B3's are much more moderate. At the same time I like some aspects of this better than I liked B3. The second theme's better for instance, and the funeral march is as good (B3 and B4, along with D2, are the best funeral march sections so far). Balance is weird with various orchestral details sometimes being too prominent or not prominent enough (where are the trumpets at the climax???). Overall, a bit too nice and pastoral for my tastes. Underpowered.

B1 - Thumbs up (w/reservations)
B3 & B4 - Meh, first class
B2 - Meh, second class

Final score
D2
B1 = D4
(large gap)
D1
B3 = B4
D3 = B2

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks for the scores, amw!

[mc ukrneal]

B1 - Funereal, with the very slow tempo creating almost painful tension and suspense on its own; a unique and unrepeatable interpretation. Not a cough or rustle from the live audience until long after the movement's over. I wonder if they're holding their breath; were I there, I probably would be. >.> The conductor can hold a long line together, and the clarity of the lines and inner parts lends interest to the performance. However the funeral marches lose their march quality altogether. In other passages the rock-steady slow tempo combined with Bruckner's obsession with fitting everything into 4- and 8-bar phrases yields a hypnotic effect; the build-up to the coda, with soft string figures and horn chords over a deep sustained note, gains a massive amount of tension without needing to ramp up the dynamics as B2 and B4 do simply by refusing to move forwards. Definitely held my attention throughout, though I was fidgeting and playing with my hair quite a bit.

It was amazing to me how slow it goes and yet the line is so easy to follow. I agree that it is unique and I would not want it to be my only version, but what an amazing interpretation.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've had no time today (thought I would) but I should have B group done by tomorrow.

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks, Sarge.

So Group C can close. One more Group C vote is on its way!

Will try to get 4 scores per group since the third round combines all three rounds.
B needs two which Sarge will provide one. Group A needs two also, which Jens has one, so could use another volunteer.

Thanks, friends!

[jlaurson]

C1: Forgettable. Good. But not grab-you-by-the-lapel stuff. In a way not as offensive as C2 is, in some places, but C2 is too good to have that mean C1 beats C2. It just doesn't. It's to vanilla. It might work as part of the whole symphony, if the other movements make sense of it... and in that sense this is a shame... but as a single movement, it's just not enough.
No.4

C2: Muffled, old sound. Portentous opening, but in the best of possible ways. Plaintive, forresty. Too slow, but works, actually. Bad sound, muffled and hissy and with switch in quality intermittently. Not, admittedly, listened to on good equipment (computer sound card but good headphones), but still, it really ought to sound better. Broad and broad-minded, sweeping yet conventional. Transitions are good: none too abrupt and effective. Very live recording; many coughs and extraneous instrument sounds. On the one hand, this seems experienced Brucknerizing... on the other hand, I'm not quite sure I buy it.
No.3

C3: Good and calm. Except for very few instrumental hiccups, this is good and well played and unspectacularly above average. My sound card must suck; this, too, sounds like muffled crap. Perhaps I should use *lesser* headphones to get more out of this.
No.2

C4: Is there not a single recording with good sound in this group?
But holy COW, what an opening! PAINFULLY searing from the first notes. I'm all yours! Goosebumps. And there I thought there wasn't a really good B6 among the whole lot. Totally stead tempo changes (invisible accelerando). OK, not quite holding up like that, throughout, but still top notch.
No.1

[jlaurson]

C1: Forgettable. Good. But not grab-you-by-the-lapel stuff. In a way not as offensive as C2 is, in some places, but C2 is too good to have that mean C1 beats C2. It just doesn't. It's to vanilla. It might work as part of the whole symphony, if the other movements make sense of it... and in that sense this is a shame... but as a single movement, it's just not enough.
No.4

C2: Muffled, old sound. Portentous opening, but in the best of possible ways. Plaintive, forresty. Too slow, but works, actually. Bad sound, muffled and hissy and with switch in quality intermittently. Not, admittedly, listened to on good equipment (computer sound card but good headphones), but still, it really ought to sound better. Broad and broad-minded, sweeping yet conventional. Transitions are good: none too abrupt and effective. Very live recording; many coughs and extraneous instrument sounds. On the one hand, this seems experienced Brucknerizing... on the other hand, I'm not quite sure I buy it.
No.3

C3: Good and calm. Except for very few instrumental hiccups, this is good and well played and unspectacularly above average. My sound card must suck; this, too, sounds like muffled crap. Perhaps I should use *lesser* headphones to get more out of this.
No.2

C4: Is there not a single recording with good sound in this group?
But holy COW, what an opening! PAINFULLY searing from the first notes. I'm all yours! Slooooooooooow goosebumps. Celi-in-Japan-style. (Not that there is such a thing, I think.) And there I thought there wasn't a really good B6 among the whole lot. Totally stead tempo changes (invisible accelerando). OK, not quite holding up like that, throughout, but still top notch.
No.1

I'm not sure... C3 as No.2 seems too much for simply delivering something that isn't offensive. In a way C3 isn't THAT much better than C1. But I can't have the calculatingly fine C2 be No.2, either... Uh well...

[Brian]

My sound card must suck; this, too, sounds like muffled crap. Perhaps I should use *lesser* headphones to get more out of this.

C1 has thin violin tone, and C3 really is as old and "muffled" as you say it is, but the other two sounded fine to me.

[TheGSMoeller]

Updated C -

Group C

Pim
C1
C3
C4
C2

Neal
C3
C1
C2
C4

Jens
C4
C3
C2
C1

Brian         Cato
C4              C4
C2              C2
C1              C1
C3              C3

C1 - 17 pts
C2 - 16 pts
C3 - 17 pts
C4 - 20 pts

A tie!!!

[TheGSMoeller]

Wow, Group C is close. I have previous round scores at home and I'll figure out the tie later. Will be which ever recording has most combined from both rounds, since I changed up the "Letter/Number" of each group I can't remember which one is which. 

To be continued  ...

[Cato]

Wow, Group C is close. I have previous round scores at home and I'll figure out the tie later. Will be which ever recording has most combined from both rounds, since I changed up the "Letter/Number" of each group I can't remember which one is which. 

To be continued  ...

The excitement builds!  I just wrote over at the Schubert Quintet blind comparison that the Adagio of the work (I believe) is perhaps the hardest one to perform from an interpretive standpoint.  For the Sixth, the next two movements ought to cause the conductor and the orchestra some nervousness!

[TheGSMoeller]

C1 - 17 pts
C2 - 16 pts
C3 - 17 pts
C4 - 20 pts

A tie!!!

C1 and C3 both had 13 points in the first round. 
So, the tiebreaker for a tiebreaker is going to be which ever recording had more 1st place votes...

In Round 1 the recording now known as C1 received one 1st place vote, and another one here in Round 2.
In Round 1 the recording now known as C3 received two 1st place votes, and another one here in Round 2,

which means that C1 will be eliminated along with C2.
C3 and C4 survive! 

[Brian]

I'm actually rather happy with that outcome. I loved all the recordings in Group C.