Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

[Brian]

Excitement level: 10

EDIT: I got so excited I listened to the first theme of the first movement, as played by all four. I wanted to judge them just by the intonation and phrasing of the cellos, the ways they emphasize the notes. None are as rich as Nagano (this is a place where Nagano took extra-special care), but all are very different. Very, very different.

I think we all knew there would be an eccentric in this final round. But I'm not sure. I think there are two eccentrics.

We'll see. 

[Daverz]

I misunderstood where you guys were in the competition.  I don't think I would put Stein in the very top spot, either, though I'm not sure what recording I would put there.

[mc ukrneal]

I misunderstood where you goes were in the competition.  I don't think I would put Stein in the very top spot, either, though I'm not sure what recording I would put there.

Maybe you can help us decide? It's fun.

[Daverz]

Maybe you can help us decide? It's fun.

Seems a bit like poaching on others hard work at this late date, but if someone sends me links, I'll give it a shot.

[mc ukrneal]

I am now half way through and very exciting stuff. I have a clear leader among the first two, and we'll see if one of the last two can unseat it.

[Daverz]

I class 2 of the 4 as also-rans, and I think I have a clear preference among the other 2, though I want to let them go another round.

To spice things up, I think I'll add some other recordings from my collection to my listening (which I'll keep to myself until the end).  Maybe I'll have the energy to add some from the previously eliminated as well.  The ones I have on my music server are Skrowaczewski, Stein, Blomstedt/SFS, Lopez-Cobos, and both Jochums.  I'm pretty familiar with Stein, so I'll probably try refreshing my memory of some of the others.

[mc ukrneal]

I class 2 of the 4 as also-rans, and I think I have a clear preference among the other 2, though I want to let them go another round.

Same here. Exactly the same. I wonder if they are the same ones...find out soon enough....

[Brian]

F1. The first movement is pretty much how it goes in my head, with a notable sense of purpose and mythic grandeur. This is a live recording, but an incredibly accomplished one; I think I heard a wrong note in the coda but that's it. To me, the tempo and fluidity sit squarely in the Brucknerian mainstream, so this is a good "normal" performance. The brass blares away without sacrificing the rest of the orchestra.

Adagio: Perfect. Beyond perfect. I'm pretty sure this is the performance that finally convinced me of this adagio's worth - early on I had always been flummoxed by the lack of a big "climax" like the Seventh or Eighth. And then I heard this performance and it all clicked. Still the best there is. Other people will say this is slow, but I'm too busy floating in the heavens to notice.

If anything, the adagio works against the performance as a whole, because interpreted like this, there's just no way the rest of the symphony can possibly measure up. The last two movements just aren't as well-written by Bruckner as the adagio is when it's co-written by Bruckner and Conductor F1. Despite a ringing, outstanding final coda, I do hear a little why Tintner says the finale does not live up to what came before. That's not to complain about the performances; they're at a very high level. (Wish that crazy clarinet trill after 4:00 in the finale was more audible.) Maybe it would have helped if the finale was a little...slower!?

Rating 9.2/10; second

F2. Significantly quicker in the first movement. Quicker, but after F1 it feels shallow. The longer I listen and get away from the mind-altering state of F1, the more I like this. It is a very good performance. Boomy timpani, always a plus. First movement, final seconds are a bit on the edge: sounds like a second-rate orchestra putting in an amazingly heroic effort.

Good adagio. I think this is going to be a very good performance. I love the dark crackling of the trombones in the scherzo. Like F1, that nutso clarinet trill is MIA in the finale. It must be rare to get to hear it as characterful as it was in X4 - which is still alive in the finals! Does the tension drop a bit halfway through the finale? (Around 8:00-9:00?) That's a liability. Brass does drown out some wind details at times, unlike F1. All in all this is a good "conventional" account: not going to blow any minds, or open any doors, but never does anything wrong either. It's certainly a plausible finalist.

Rating 7.5/10; fourth

F3. When I listened to the first 30 seconds of each recording earlier this week, I thought I had this one identified easily as You-Know-Who. But, of course, it's somebody else. The extremely slow violin rhythm at the start is a deceptive front, as the first movement slowly builds energy. Pretty much glorious woodwind and brass playing. I love how the French horns are always circling, like a shark. This is fairly glorious.

I heard this adagio in the adagio round and awarded it second place behind Dresden/Haitink. It was a close call, though. I loved the old-school sound and brilliant phrasing and warned Norrington, if you want a fast version, this is how to do it. Yup. Sounds right.

This is a case of the old sound actually helping. The brass are just stupendous recorded like this, and that wacky clarinet trill blows up in the finale at about 3:50. Although I have to say the timpani could cut through a little better at times. That occurred to me in the finale, and was the first thought of criticism I had.

How do I choose between F1 and F3??? How do you choose between your children? Here we have two recordings which got here, not like F2 on competence and sheer nothing-wrong-ness, but on genuine inspiration. F1 has the slow movement to die for, perfect in every way. And yet I think that there's a good argument that the 22 minutes of sheer Olympian majesty plunked in the middle of F1 makes for an impossible act to follow. F3 has nothing wrong with its adagio, and it just plain fits in better with the surroundings. It's a balanced, near-perfect whole. And I never had that thought about the finale being inadequate. I am interested in hearing what other listeners think of this adagio/finale balance theory as they submit their scores. Only the deceptive beginning and a recording that sometimes lets the timpanist go AWOL prevents this from being an hour-long perfect 10. Holy cow, this is great.

Rating 9.7/10; first

F4. There's a reverb factor in this acoustic. Fast, driven, passionate first movement - not at all cold. I find myself nodding along in the big passages. Some of the other performances have demonstrated remarkable flexibility, but this one is so strict that its rhythm becomes part of the power of the work - irresistible, unstoppable. It works.

The adagio feels too fast at times (though it is a bit slower than F3's), but is saved by the beautiful sounds of the strings. The thrill-ride interpretation returns for the second half, and the finale has a lot of guts. F2 should hear this and see how not to let momentum down. Interesting, if not preferable, how the trombones and tuba make a giant crescendo of their part 11:32-11:48. Thrilling final coda.

Now, how am I supposed to rate this versus F1 and F3? What we have here are three Great Recordings, three plausible champions, three reference versions. How do we break the tie? Personal taste, probably. F4 is the heavy metal thriller. F1 is the adagio from heaven. F3 is old-school warmth. F2 is the only wrong answer here; all the others are right answers. I'm ranking them based only on my own preference - although my real preference is for all three! If this took place last month, or next month, my ordering might be completely different!

Rating 9.0/10; third

4. F2
3. F4
2. F1
1. F3

If you had told me before the competition started that I would not rank Conductor F1 first, I would have been very surprised.

[TheGSMoeller]

Wonderful comments, Brian. Thank you for participating. 

[Brian]

Oh, and if amw gets bored and decides to write up a thing about each conductor's (non-)conformity to the score, I will read with great interest.

[North Star]

I take it that Greg is in no hurry with the votes.. I might be able to participate too.

[amw]

I won't have a chance to start listening until next week, most likely, but will probably go into detail about something. Can't guarantee it will be that.

[TheGSMoeller]

I won't have a chance to start listening until next week, most likely, but will probably go into detail about something. Can't guarantee it will be that.

I'll wait for a while, at least another week. Would love to get your comments in for the final round. And I will for sure hit up the Schubert Quintet BC this week!

I take it that Greg is in no hurry with the votes.. I might be able to participate too.

Please do!

[North Star]

Please do!

I'll need the links, though. 

[kishnevi]

Listening to first movement of one candidate---I think I have found a winner.  Now let us see if the other three movements are up to the same standard.

[Pat B]

I won't have a chance to start listening until next week, most likely, but will probably go into detail about something. Can't guarantee it will be that.

I'm hoping for sordid details about the performers' personal lives. Though I guess Brian's idea would be okay too.

[mc ukrneal]

Bruckner Final

F1 – Good start. Brass section is nice and intense. Some minor (?) intonation and unison issues. These guys have a good sound, though on occasion the trumpets seem a bit distant. A solid first movement, though at key moments important instruments seem to disappear.  Second movement continues on the slower side, perhaps a bit draggy. Third movement appears to be a similar pace. I wish there was more differentiation to create more contrast (probably its downfall). Faster fourth movement adds some contrast, but still it seems to stay within certain parameters. And the trumpet calls at the beginning are VERY laid back and even timid I would say (as well as being very legato).  It's an ok performance, but not one I would ever return to. Ranking: 3

F2 – Faster, but also quite a good start. Brass again quite good and overall sound is excellent. This one has better nuance and detail. Here again, some key sounds are subdued. But the adagio is much better. This is fantastic. The flow and crescendos are excellent. And the third movement starts intense. A fine scherzo. Ah, the last movement starts relatively slow, and a bit too legato on the trumpet entrances. I'd prefer a touch faster, but still nicely done. F2 blows the F1 adagio out of the water.   Ranking: 1

F3 – Slow.  Some unison issues, despite this. I don't like how some instruments stick out. Transitions are very disorganized and lacking in flow. Sounds great at times, but then as raw as a school orchestra – too inconsistent.  I'd be happy if they could just follow the bloody beat. Fast Adagio and rather matter of fact. There are a lot of technical issues in their playing. Some sort of technical issue around the 7 minute mark.  Slow start to scherzo. Lacks cohesiveness. Finale is ok, but I was already lost. Disappointed.  Ranking: 4

F4 – A more intense start than the previous. Much better in the details and much more enjoyable. Brass a bit wonky in moments. But the excitement is just off the charts.  A bit fast to start the Adagio, but gorgeously played. The approach is just right in my opinion, and I adjust to the speeds soon enough.  Scherzo is slower. I'd like a bit more crispness at times, but the overall impact is good. A good pace in the finale, though perhaps slows just a bit. Oh, this gets to be exciting – they build well. I like that throughout the flow is always there and the structure of the piece always on display.
Ranking: 2

F1 and F3 lag behind. It's clearly between F2 and F4. Let's do a head to head.  Neither is my ideal first movement, but both do a good job – F1 has good flow with occasional details lost and some occasional distance in certain instruments though the crescendos here are outstanding, while F4 is faster and tighter (but I think the crescendos could have been more, and inner transparency isn't my ideal here either). I think flow wins it, so I give it to F2. In the adagio – well, both are excellent and I love them both. F4 is faster, but it seems natural and flows just right (good propulsion). It's exciting. The buildups are so well done (though the actual climaxes don't quite have that earth-shattering power). F2 is a different beast entirely. It's darker and creates an entirely different impact – one that touches the soul. The transitions are exquisite and the details/nuances are just right. Buildups (the way they draw out the line in the middle buildup – wow) and climaxes are spot on. End is exquisite. So while I loved both, F2 again takes it (by a hair).

In the Scherzo, F2 doesn't do the transitions as well, but there is a lightness that is just right after that adagio. And the climaxes are strong. F4 inverts the relationship with a faster adagio and slower scherzo. The transitions are sharper (probably in part because it is slower), but the propulsion isn't quite as strong. The pulse is there, but slightly more static. I think the middle section is not quite as well integrated with the other portions. So again, I think F2 takes it (though neither is perfect here).

And then the finale. F4 has a lot of excitement and intensity. The finale is a bit of a minefield and transitions are decently handled (sometimes the very first beat or two seems off before they recover). Everything feels connected, though tempos are occasionally forced. F2 is slower here, but after the scherzo, feels ok. The tempos are pulled and pushed a bit, but the transitions are done well. Again, the crescendos (and decrescendos) are just so good! I think F4 is more exciting, but this is more coherent and ultimately more convincing.

When I listened to the first time, I was leaning F2 until the finale, where the excitement of F4 made me question which should be first. But listening to just the two, F2 was the clear winner.

It has been a fun exercise and thanks for organizing it Greg!!!!

Final Ranking: F2, F4, F1, F3.

FYI – I did not look at any previous rankings or try to match up these ratings with early ratings. Listening to the whole piece is a different from listening to each section separate from the rest. And I wanted to give it a fresh listen.

[Brian]

That settles it. Neal is my sworn enemy for life! 

[kishnevi]

I think I am ready to vote.  As usual I went for the overall effect, so I will just say thatmy first choice grabbed me and held me, the others were good but did not have the same effect. Scores on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 the theoretical best.

F1 7
F2 8
F3 8
F4 9

[mc ukrneal]

Comments hidden to protect the guilty! 

Well, that was interesting. I am actually a bit shocked. We are the exact opposite. You disliked what I loved and vice versa.

About your favorite and my worst (same one):
You wrote: This is fairly glorious.  It's a balanced, near-perfect whole.
I wrote: Sounds great at times, but then as raw as a school orchestra – too inconsistent.  I'd be happy if they could just follow the bloody beat.

About my favorite and your worst (same one):

You wrote:  sounds like a second-rate orchestra putting in an amazingly heroic effort. good "conventional" account.
I wrote: Brass again quite good and overall sound is excellent.   touches the soul.

It is times like these I wish we could listen to these in groups. I'd set you straight.