Bruckner's 6th Symphony - Blind Comparison

Started by TheGSMoeller, May 02, 2014, 05:05:52 AM

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amw

F3
This is a good recording, for the most part. I won't sing its praises since that's Sergeant Rock's job. But:
- The very slow tempo to start with is odd, since the conductor doesn't really commit to it (there is no discernible slowdown at Bedeutend langsamer, if anything the music seems to get faster). I'm not very convinced it was necessary.
- The final coda of the 1st movement doesn't hit home strongly enough. That may be, for me, because the final fff at Tempo wie anfangs (bar 353) isn't markedly set off from the previous 'trudging' music (bars 309 to 352): Conductor has a tendency to get louder and more exciting throughout the course of the piece anyway.
- Slow movement doesn't really prepare the finale. I'm not sure how else to put this. But the whole point of the finale (and scherzo to some extent) is this opposition between F, the key of death or whatever, which is associated with descending scales and spookiness and quiet and so forth, and which the music keeps drifting towards, and A, the key of life or joy or whatever, which is only ever achieved by brute force shifts sort of like a 'leap of faith'. And what sets this up is the slow movement: its core is this extremely dead, hushed music, but which finally presents a normal dominant 7th resolution into F (whereas in the first movement, again, A major was only established by a blind leap out of an endless series of plagal Amens). The 21 bars of pure F major that end the adagio are the longest stretch of music in a single key in the whole piece. I expect this music to be transformative, and to make every subsequent recollection of F major call to mind the funeral march and those deep bass pedals and the last, ragged breaths of a dying person (the last 3 chords of the adagio) etc. So for me the slow movement here was both too happy and too overtly demonstrative—too 'extraverted'.
- Similarly, the F/A duality is not always on track in the finale. Two points I will single out: 1) the crescendo from 113 to 124, on the dominant of F, is paired with an accelerando—this makes it too superficially exciting and actually cuts out some of the tension. (Much better done when this passage recurs at 359-370, actually the best performance of those 12 bars in this competition.) 2) Another bedeutend langsamer is ignored—bars 177 to 244 are taken at the main tempo. This is the dark heart of the movement, where F asserts itself most strongly, and the music comes closest to dissolution (main theme inverted in F major, inexplicable brass outbursts, tension generally being ratcheted up). The performance here is simply too matter-of-fact, particularly at the start of the passage, and that causes the movement to lose its main crisis and source of drama.
The instrumental balance throughout is the best of the 4, though whether that's Conductor, Engineer or the 24-bit remastering being just that good, I have no idea.

F2
This version apparently uses a newer version of the score, but following along with the old Haas/Novak edition suggested that the differences involved are not that significant. Perhaps GSM could flip through the booklet and tell us more about it after the comparison's over.
I would like to give F2 first place just for the amazing job done by the orchestra here. (or maybe it's Studio Magic, who knows.) Consistently characterful playing from everyone involved, genuine terraced dynamics (p, pp and ppp all made to sound different), everyone's dead on the beat etc. Balance is not as good as F3, whose fault that is I'm not sure. This is however let down by the conductor's handling of tempo, which is stiff and a bit lifeless throughout. The orchestra sings out gloriously in the coda of the first movement, but without the conductor shaping phrases organically and allowing them to breathe, the effect is somewhat diminished. A similar stiffness affects many bits of the finale, particularly the recapitulation and coda which then suffer by comparison with the extremely powerful F4 in particular, though the dramatisation of the tonal conflict is better brought out (at the cost of some of the energy). However Conductor does much better in the adagio, which manages to be far more poetic, deeper, darker, more tender, etc than F3 or F4—slow without losing rhythmic definition, if not quite breath-holding material. It is the highlight of this recording, just one the finale doesn't manage to live up to; one wonders if Conductor himself finds the finale unsatisfactory, or whether he's just not able to do justice to it.

Comparing the last 2 1/2 minutes of the first movement of F2 to the last 3 minutes of Davies, and then the last 3 minutes of F1, definitely highlighted how much phrasing can make or break a performance of this piece (and gave me a feeling that F1 is going to be my #1 pick, but I have yet to listen to the whole thing to verify this).

For now, in order:
F2
F3
F4

Brahmsian

Haven't had time for the final round blind listen.  Been dealing with a death in the family and haven't been on GMG.  Don't know when I'll get to it.

amw

F1
Yeah, this one's the best. Most of the advantages of F2, plus superb phrasing: the music breathes and flows much more naturally. The orchestra's hearts are definitely in it, their only deficiency being some unison issues (and the clarinets often getting buried). If I have one main complaint, it's, well... don't laugh at me... it's just a bit too slow.

Sorry. But it is. The adagio is what most people are going to point to (average tempo under this conductor: eighth note = 65), and it does come close to falling apart several times, but is saved for me by the cumulative effects of bars 93-112, 149-156, and the Mahler 9/Shostakovich 4-esque 'dying of the light' that follows (bars 157-the end), none of which could have been effective without the very slow tempo of the rest of the movement—in essence, the 'funeral march' sections were sacrificed in order to create a more elegiac and dramatic overall effect, which I'm fine with after the fact. Actually I think the first and last movements suffer more from the slower tempi, which leach a good deal of drama and excitement from passages like e.g. the very end of the 1st movement (smeared final chord doesn't help), or bars 332-356 of the finale. The last two movements are stronger than the first two—the scherzo is close to ideal, the finale doesn't need excitement and can subsist on majesty and a deep understanding of the material. Still, I would have to put the finale as second best after F4, which has majesty, a deep understanding of the material and is also pretty awesome. I still don't like the other three movements of F4 very much, but the finale pushes it a bit higher—still fourth place, but a 'meh' instead of a 'nay' maybe.

Overall, in order—
phrasing: F1, F3
understanding of piece that is similar to mine: F1, F2 (orchestra at least)
excitement, drama: F3, F4
sound: F2, F1
tempi: F2 (mvts I-III), F4 (IV)
detail: F1, F2
poetry, tenderness, etc: F1, F2, F3

All of these have something to recommend them. But these are my preferences:
F1 90%
F2 85%
F3 82%
F4 70%

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: amw on October 27, 2014, 03:00:25 PM
Overall, in order—
phrasing: F1, F3
understanding of piece that is similar to mine: F1, F2 (orchestra at least)
excitement, drama: F3, F4
sound: F2, F1
tempi: F2 (mvts I-III), F4 (IV)
detail: F1, F2
poetry, tenderness, etc: F1, F2, F3

Now that's detail. Thank you, amw.



Total scores. I will push the deadline back to Thursday night. If you would like more time that's fine. The more votes the better.  ;D 
But soon, the crown will be placed, the throne will be taken, the golden baton will be awarded, the....ok, I'll stop.  8)

F1 - 17
F2 - 14.5
F3 - 16.5
F4 - 12



Ken B

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 27, 2014, 03:30:54 PM
Now that's detail. Thank you, amw.



Total scores. I will push the deadline back to Thursday night. If you would like more time that's fine. The more votes the better.  ;D 
But soon, the crown will be placed, the throne will be taken, the golden baton will be awarded, the....ok, I'll stop.  8)

F1 - 17
F2 - 14.5
F3 - 16.5
F4 - 12


It looks like amw's reign of terror continues; his choices always win!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 03:41:27 PM
It looks like amw's reign of terror continues; his choices always win!

Well, 2-3 more votes can swing this thing either way. But F1 did receive another 1st place vote and one 2nd place.


amw

Quote from: Ken B on October 27, 2014, 03:41:27 PM
It looks like amw's reign of terror continues; his choices always win!
Every recording I listened to in rounds 1 and 2, except one (the current F1), was eliminated, so it's about time I get my revenge >:{D

Seriously though, I didn't like conductor F1 in the 8th when I heard it, yawn-inducing apart from the final movement (I'm not sure whether that was the fault of conductor, Bruckner or me), so I wasn't expecting to respond to this so positively. It's possible that this time we just eliminated all the good ones already. :P

Brian

#667
Well, amw, thank you for your amazing series of posts. I'm utterly fascinated by them and this makes me want to relisten to all four. Oops!

Oddly, although we disagreed on our ultimate ordering...
Quote from: amw on October 27, 2014, 03:00:25 PM
Overall, in order—
phrasing: F1, F3
understanding of piece that is similar to mine: F1, F2 (orchestra at least)
excitement, drama: F3, F4
sound: F2, F1
tempi: F2 (mvts I-III), F4 (IV)
detail: F1, F2
poetry, tenderness, etc: F1, F2, F3
...I agree entirely on this more detailed listing.

The passage of the finale which you believe F3 glosses over ("the dark heart of the movement") is the passage where F2 finally lost me. It's too much slower, for me, and kills the momentum altogether. Otherwise a fairly well-judged performance.

amw

Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2014, 07:00:12 PM
The passage of the finale which you believe F3 glosses over ("the dark heart of the movement") is the passage where F2 finally lost me. It's too much slower, for me, and kills the momentum altogether. Otherwise a fairly well-judged performance.
Yes, that's a tough balancing act. F2's tempi are close to perfect except for most of the finale—that one passage sacrifices too much energy for its deathness—and except for the fact that the conductor doesn't allow them to breathe. Really, the orchestra carries F2. Which is a surprise to me because the orchestra is nowhere near as well known as the conductor (or the other 3 orchestras involved in this final round), so you'd think it was a case where a great conductor inspired an orchestra to awesomeness, but apparently not.

My extensive verbiage surrounding F3 is basically just a roundabout way of saying 'classic performance, just didn't move me'

Brian

Quote from: amw on October 27, 2014, 07:34:27 PM
Yes, that's a tough balancing act. F2's tempi are close to perfect except for most of the finale—that one passage sacrifices too much energy for its deathness—and except for the fact that the conductor doesn't allow them to breathe. Really, the orchestra carries F2. Which is a surprise to me because the orchestra is nowhere near as well known as the conductor (or the other 3 orchestras involved in this final round), so you'd think it was a case where a great conductor inspired an orchestra to awesomeness, but apparently not.

My extensive verbiage surrounding F3 is basically just a roundabout way of saying 'classic performance, just didn't move me'

F2's orchestra may not be as well-known as the conductor, but the conductor isn't exactly a star/fixture/Major Artist either. (S)he is a demanding one, however. I think it's maybe a sign of how high a standard a certain class of orchestra has/had at the time the recording was made.

That was really hard to write without giving away spoilers.

amw

I suppose that's true, standards are/were/will be much higher at the time F2 was/is being/will be recorded than they are/were/will be at the time F4, for instance, was/is being/will be recorded. Possibly.

(Actually F4 is the only one whose identity I still don't know, though judging from the remarks on the previous couple of pages, it appears to be one of the old-world classics. Nonetheless, since I'd not heard any recordings of Bruckner 6 before this comparison, knowing the names doesn't make it much less blind for me.)

mc ukrneal

Quote from: amw on October 27, 2014, 03:00:25 PM
understanding of piece that is similar to mine: F1, F2 (orchestra at least)
Does this mean that you are going to be predisposed to some renditions because of how you think the piece should be played? And if they don't play it that way, does that mean you are giving a version short shrift? I ask because this comment and another you make further on make it sound like you are evaluating the piece against how you think it should sound rather than basing on whether or not they are successful at what they try to do (and whether that interpretive decision is a good one or not is yet another issue).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Brian

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 29, 2014, 07:29:41 AM
Does this mean that you are going to be predisposed to some renditions because of how you think the piece should be played? And if they don't play it that way, does that mean you are giving a version short shrift? I ask because this comment and another you make further on make it sound like you are evaluating the piece against how you think it should sound rather than basing on whether or not they are successful at what they try to do (and whether that interpretive decision is a good one or not is yet another issue).

amw hadn't heard any recordings of the symphony before this competition, so I'm not sure (s)he had a predisposition in the way you describe. As for the bigger philosophical issue, I think that touches on the "Ebert Principle": movies should be judged based on whether they achieve their goals (and satisfy their target audience) or not.

But these four recordings are far less apples/oranges than comparing zombie movies vs. Fellini movies. And I don't think we're being asked to evaluate them based on "whether or not they are successful at what they try to do". I think we're evaluating them based on which is our favorite. F1 and F4 are both, we can all agree, spectacularly successful at doing what they try to do. These conductors and players get exactly what they want. But how many people are going to be unable to choose between them because of that?

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2014, 07:45:19 AM
amw hadn't heard any recordings of the symphony before this competition, so I'm not sure (s)he had a predisposition in the way you describe. As for the bigger philosophical issue, I think that touches on the "Ebert Principle": movies should be judged based on whether they achieve their goals (and satisfy their target audience) or not.

But these four recordings are far less apples/oranges than comparing zombie movies vs. Fellini movies. And I don't think we're being asked to evaluate them based on "whether or not they are successful at what they try to do". I think we're evaluating them based on which is our favorite. F1 and F4 are both, we can all agree, spectacularly successful at doing what they try to do. These conductors and players get exactly what they want. But how many people are going to be unable to choose between them because of that?
Well it could be quite the opposite: some versions might not have a chance because the listener is looking for a certain way to play it. And as this is a 'favorites' sort of thing, that is ok. But if it is the case, I want to know upfront and not have it wrapped in a 'this group is bad, they performed it badly, the conductor screwed up, etc.' when in reality the problem (if you want to call it that) is that the listener is leaving out an important piece information.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Cato

F 1

No rankings yet, but I will make some comments: I am using the headphones.

A live performance, so expect some audience noise.  This was a little bothersome in the Adagio's quieter sections.

The opening has some problems: a mistake in the horns, out of balance brass, and I did not like the way the cellos faded away in the opening bars.  The overall tempo is a little slow for my taste, but things become better as the movement progresses, although there are problems here and there, e.g. things drag around the 9 minute mark.  The final bars are well done!

The Adagio opens well, although the oboe is swallowed up a little by the deeper instruments.  Things are taken closer to Largo at times, than Adagio e.g. at the 5:00 ff.  The funeral march is nicely done, and the slower speed does not hurt it at all, but the next sections e.g. at c. 10:20 I find much too slow.  A wobble in the brass occurs at 15:50 or so, and things are again a little too slow.  The ending is played nicely, but seems to lack something.

The Scherzo opens with perfect playing!  Again, a little slow, but everything is top-notch!  The kaleidoscopic Trio, enigmatic as always, is played fairly well, although the brass/French horns are twice a little ragged.  The repeat is as good as the opening.

And now the Finale: the tempo no longer seems too slow.  Excellent opening, and clarity in the lines abounds in the next sections.  Great energy for the climax at 4:30 or so!  And the little dialogue at 6:00 or so is handled well, although again things were slowed down a little too much for my taste, and this slackening caused the big climax at c 9:00-10:00 to lose some of its impact.  The final minutes are played well mit Begeisterung!

Question not connected to the above necessarily:

Bruckner once commented: "Die Sechste ist die keckste!"  "Keck" meaning "sassy" or "cheeky."

Should we want a "sassy" performance?  ???
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

amw

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 29, 2014, 07:29:41 AM
Does this mean that you are going to be predisposed to some renditions because of how you think the piece should be played?
Basically.

I feel like certain interpretive decisions are more successful than others. My top choice for instance is not the way I think it 'should' be played, just the one that made the piece most successfully 'make sense' to me. My last place choice didn't work for me in part because its level of success at what it tries to do, pace Brian, is arguable—a lot is glossed over in order to achieve that effect.

Quote from: Cato on October 29, 2014, 09:20:48 AMThings are taken closer to Largo at times, than Adagio e.g. at the 5:00 ff.
There is a Largo marking there, incidentally >.> At least in the manuscript. Haas & Nowak put it in brackets and it doesn't seem to be observed often

Quote
Bruckner once commented: "Die Sechste ist die keckste!"  "Keck" meaning "sassy" or "cheeky."
He may have been making a joke or play on words, as composers occasionally are known to do.

Brian

Also, given the nature of Bruckner's other symphonies, saying that this one is the cheekiest does not mean it is cheeky. Sort of like "the happiest piece by Schnittke" or "the loudest piece by Mompou".  ;D

amw

Quote from: Cato on October 29, 2014, 09:20:48 AMThe kaleidoscopic Trio, enigmatic as always, is played fairly well, although the brass/French horns are twice a little ragged.
Those are difficult horn parts—high, chromatic and exposed. I think one of the others (F2?) had an obvious edit right before the dangerous high Eb, which actually turned me off more than a bit of raggedness in a live performance might have done. Breaks immersion a bit.

Ken B

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2014, 12:11:39 PM
Also, given the nature of Bruckner's other symphonies, saying that this one is the cheekiest does not mean it is cheeky. Sort of like "the happiest piece by Schnittke" or "the loudest piece by Mompou".  ;D
"Best of Webern."

TheGSMoeller