Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)

[bassio]

hey fl.traverso, do you have the Immerseel Harry is referring to? What do you think?

[Harry]

Let me bring into this discussion this set, which is also a rather good period instruments performance. 11 cd's for 20,- euro's for this quality....

[FideLeo]

hey fl.traverso, do you have the Immerseel Harry is referring to? What do you think?

This is actually my first complete set of HIP Mozart solo keyboard concerti recordings. 
(Before Gardiner/Bilson and the incomplete Hogwood/Levin came into my collection.)
Beautifully recorded (spacious acoustics, naturally balanced), notes a bit too brief.
Flowing, polished performances but a bit low in tension.  "Expansive" is probably a
good way to describe it.  Mind you this is stated in comparison to other HIP sets.
By the avearge of both HIP and non-HIP (Schiff, Zarcharias, Brandel etc.) it is not
slow at all.  Depending on one's taste in concertante music (competition and harmony
in balance), this may be found to be advantageous or otherwise. The Bilson and Gardiner
has a more integrated ensemble, and Levin's passagework and phrasing are more
tasefully done if it is for me to say.  But neither sounds smoother and more relaxed
than Immerseel.

[FideLeo]

Aha, interesting...

Pardon a n00b, but is that good or bad...? 

Well, I can imagine smooth and I guess it's a matter of taste, but what does attenuated mean in this context?

And how would you, or anyone else for that matter, describe the Gardiner/Bilson set? Oh well, I guess I'll have to sign up to emusic to sample Immerseel properly. DGG has actually got decent samples of Gardiner/Bilson on their website, but there are still quite a few movements where you don't get to hear the keyboard in the sample.

I think van Immerseel sounds more large-scaled, despite what another poster said about the weak fortepiano sound.  (None of
the HIP sets that i know has a powerful fortepiano presence.  One has to go to the two Andreas Staier/ Concerto Koln discs to
hear white hot keyboard virtuosity shoved in-your-face.)  Things are taken somewhat leisurely and for example, the nervous syncopations in K.466i are not really etched out like they are in Bilson/Gardiner or Levin/Hogwood.  But Immerseel's expansive
approach really works in K. 482 where it doesn't hurt at all to have things spread out a bit.  Lyrical movements are beautfully
done but one really needs to hear Staier for best example of articulation or inflection in fortepiano playing.

[Bogey]

One of my favorite sets on the shelf Harry.  You will surely enjoy them.

[Harry]

One of my favorite sets on the shelf Harry.  You will surely enjoy them.

Well I actually did allready! Heard the first disc, absolutely marvelous.

[rickardg]

Thank you very much for your informative post!

I've spent some time this afternoon sampling the Bilson/Gardiner set at the DDG website and the Immerseel set at jpc.de. I've only sampled the concerti mentioned below.

I think van Immerseel sounds more large-scaled, despite what another poster said about the weak fortepiano sound.

That's not my impression, but it could be because the DGG samples play louder on my computer (and longer, and aren't they in higher quality as well?)

Things are taken somewhat leisurely and for example, the nervous syncopations in K.466i are not really etched out like they are in Bilson/Gardiner or Levin/Hogwood.

Ah yes, is that what you meant with attenuated? It's quite a pronounced difference.

But Immerseel's expansive approach really works in K. 482 where it doesn't hurt at all to have things spread out a bit.

The fortepiano seems very staccato in the higher register in the third movement, almost only attack. Perhaps the instrument just doesn't have more sustain? or maybe it just sounds like that because the tempo is slower than Gardiners? I think I would like a bit more tone...

Based solely on the samples of these two concerti I'm leaning towards Gardiner/Bilson, but I really should listen to longer and higher quality samples of Immerseel.

[longears]

Fortepianos are weak, and thin-sounding, and thus period instrument performances of such works are the exception to my usual preferences.  On the plus side, I think these are passable performances (I like the orchestra much better, for instance, than the accompaniment on Uchida's set) and the instrument is bigger-sounding than most I've heard.  On the minus side, for my tastes this set doesn't hold a musical candle to the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism, among cycles or partial cycles I prefer.  Still, a decent period instrument HIP performance is better than none! 

(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)

[rickardg]

Fortepianos are weak

Oh, I know, I meant in comparison to the Gardiner/Bilson set which sounds fine to me. I kind of like the bell-like sound in the high register and the transparency in the lower register of the fortepiano

(Edit: well, perhaps not the set, maybe just the few seconds of K. 482:iii I compared)

[...] the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism [...]

I'm in the market for "modern" recordings as well, but I guess that's off-topic for this thread. In fact, I'm listening to Brendel/Mackerras PC no. 9 "Jeunehomme" as we speak, good stuff...

(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)

And cursing under their breath for making them revise their entire keyboard oeuvre
Now, behave yourselves everyone, don't make this into a HIP-non-HIP-period-instruments-modern-instruments flamewar

[bassio]

Did Levin record the complete set with Hogwood? I thought they only recorded the first four!

Any efforts from Lubin? I am a fan of his HIP Beethoven concertos. In fact it is the first HIP piano performance I hear and what made me gradually sinking in HIP nowadays.

[FideLeo]

Fortepianos are weak, and thin-sounding, and thus period instrument performances of such works are the exception to my usual preferences.  On the plus side, I think these are passable performances (I like the orchestra much better, for instance, than the accompaniment on Uchida's set) and the instrument is bigger-sounding than most I've heard.  On the minus side, for my tastes this set doesn't hold a musical candle to the Schiff/Vegh set, the Goode/Orpheus recordings, the Brendel/Mackerras set, or Uchida's pianism, among cycles or partial cycles I prefer.  Still, a decent period instrument HIP performance is better than none! 

(If there's a Sunday School Heaven, surely Mozart and Beethoven are there and singing God's praises for providing them with modern Steinways and Bösendorfers!)

My tastes dicate a fundamental disagreement with all of the above.

[FideLeo]

Did Levin record the complete set with Hogwood? I thought they only recorded the first four!

Any efforts from Lubin? I am a fan of his HIP Beethoven concertos. In fact it is the first HIP piano performance I hear and what made me gradually sinking in HIP nowadays.

The ones Levin was not able to record with Hogwood (before the project got axed, like Hogwood's complete Haydn symphonies): K. 467, K. 492, K. 503, K. 595 (2 discs worth) but he had done all other solo concertos.

Lubin obviously recorded a couple of concerto discs - one of K. 413-415, and another (Arabesque) that includes an apparently very strong K. 466 (from the responses I heard).  I haven't heard either. 

[bassio]

Lubin obviously recorded a couple of concerto discs - one of K. 413-415, and another (Arabesque) that includes an apparently very strong K. 466 (from the responses I heard).  I haven't heard either. 

Tears flowing down my cheecks already!! 

I googled it btw and it appears to be very rare, maybe even discontinued. But a guy at a Mozart forum said that this was the best 466 he ever heard. AND HE HEARD 15 VERSIONS!!

[FideLeo]

Tears flowing down my cheecks already!! 

I googled it btw and it appears to be very rare, maybe even discontinued. But a guy at a Mozart forum said that this was the best 466 he ever heard. AND HE HEARD 15 VERSIONS!!

Take heart bassio!

Lubin has set up his own company to re-release these Mozart concerto recordings.

http://www.classicalsoundings.com/index.html

The first to come, though, is the previously unreleased K. 449 and K. 467.  You can
probably contact Mr Lubin to find out when the other two recordings will be released
on the new label.

I am quite happy with the several HIP k. 466 I already have, including one with
Patrick Cohen and Christophe Coin's Limogoes ensemble (Naive).  Tempi are a bit too
slow to be truly gripping but the phrasings are beautiful and recorded fortepiano
sound and balance are lifelike.

[Opus106]

Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

[ChamberNut]

Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Hey Nav! 

One of my new favorite Mozart pieces.  Sorry though, I can't help you with the "HIP" part. 

[Opus106]

One of my new favorite Mozart pieces.

For a moment, I thought you said "One of my few favorite Mozart pieces." 

[FideLeo]

Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Monica Huggett / Pavlo Benznosiuk / Portland Baroque Orchestra (Virgin)

[M forever]

Are there any good HIP on disc of the Sinfonia Concertante, K.364?

Not "strictly HIP", but very "historically informed" and musically outstanding in every respect is the recording with Kremer/Kashkashian/Wiener Philharmoniker/Harnoncourt - one of the few performances I know of anything which "nail" the piece so totally that for me, it has basically spoilt all other recordings and performances I have heard before and since - except for one live performance with Kremer/Bashmet/COE/Harnoncourt which was pretty awesome, too, but I don't think recordings of that are available.

[Opus106]

Monica Huggett / Pavlo Benznosiuk / Portland Baroque Orchestra (Virgin)

Not "strictly HIP", but very "historically informed" and musically outstanding in every respect is the recording with Kremer/Kashkashian/Wiener Philharmoniker/Harnoncourt - one of the few performances I know of anything which "nail" the piece so totally that for me, it has basically spoilt all other recordings and performances I have heard before and since - except for one live performance with Kremer/Bashmet/COE/Harnoncourt which was pretty awesome, too, but I don't think recordings of that are available.

Thanks you, fl.traverso and M forever.