Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)

[Opus106]

Minuets are nearly always performed more slowly than they should be. I like Pinnock's efforts there. The Classical minuet was not intended to be danced to, it was a scherzo in all but name.

I like the minuet played fast and  a little 'forcefully' in a work like K. 550, for instance, -- it sounds to me almost like a Totentanz. Otherwise, I don't mind danceable minuets.

[Sergeant Rock]

Yup that was interesting, especially the part about the tempi of the minuets at the end.  I guess Pinnock's more brisk pacing is closer to accurate then?

No, I don't believe so. That one-in-a-bar slam dance cannot be historically accurate. It makes nonsense of the music, makes nonsense of the classical ideal of balance. When a classical-era composer wanted a Scherzo, he labeled the movement Scherzo. When he called it a minuet, I have no doubt that's exactly what he meant it to be. I don't mind that you and Gurn like the faster tempo of some HIPsters but to me it just makes the music sound silly and utterly wrong (e.g., what Jacobs does to the minuets in Mozart's final three symphonies which are marked Allegretto--same speed as the slow movement of Beethoven's Seventh--and which Jacobs clearly violates in a most brutal fashion).

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better 

Minuets are nearly always performed more slowly than they should be. I like Pinnock's efforts there. The Classical minuet was not intended to be danced to, it was a scherzo in all but name.

To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

By the way, I own Pinnock's box and enjoy it, especially the early symphonies. But I don't thnk he's correct. It's just fun to hear the music played wrong sometimes 

Sarge

[DavidW]

But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better 

Sounds like Haydn's Farewell symphony!

[FideLeo]

Mozart Harmoniemusik from 'The Marriage of Figaro" Zefiro Ensemble

http://www.youtube.com/v/USJslsQhS-c

http://www.youtube.com/v/XzADjCpIz3g

Best example of 'HIP' Mozart - the arrangements (instrumentation a la Grand Partita) are not even eighteenth- or nineteenth-century, but Mozart's music was arranged and performed entirely in style, as much one can hope for anyway.




ps. It's Mozart's birthday! But seems everyone is bit O.D. on that.

[Opus106]

ps. It's Mozart's birthday! But seems everyone is bit O.D. on that. 

Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music.

[Luke]

No, I don't believe so. That one-in-a-bar slam dance cannot be historically accurate. It makes nonsense of the music, makes nonsense of the classical ideal of balance. When a classical-era composer wanted a Scherzo, he labeled the movement Scherzo. When he called it a minuet, I have no doubt that's exactly what he meant it to be. I don't mind that you and Gurn like the faster tempo of some HIPsters but to me it just makes the music sound silly and utterly wrong (e.g., what Jacobs does to the minuets in Mozart's final three symphonies which are marked Allegretto--same speed as the slow movement of Beethoven's Seventh--and which Jacobs clearly violates in a most brutal fashion).

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better 

To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

By the way, I own Pinnock's box and enjoy it, especially the early symphonies. But I don't thnk he's correct. It's just fun to hear the music played wrong sometimes 

Sarge

Seeing as this thread is ressurected, I'd just reply to the highlighted part of Sarge's 2+ years old post (I hadn't read it before, and it's where the thread opened up for me). There is one other logical reason, and one that might apply to many pieces, I suspect - convention/force of habit: I'll call this movement a minuet because that is what movements that go at this point in a symphony are called.

[FideLeo]

Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music.

A happy day indeed!   

(Back to work, Mozart later.)

[Clever Hans]

...
To believe that means that almost every conductor before Pinnock and his ilk got it wrong. I don't think they did. There is no logical reason a composer would mark a movement minuet (instead of a simple tempo indication like they did with every other movement) unless they meant it to be played as a minuet.

Sarge

There is evidence that minuets ranged from the danceable (moderate) to the not really danceable (fast), the latter namely in late Haydn and Mozart.
At least symphony and quartet metronome markings from Czerny and Hummel shed light on possible performance practice of their time.

http://books.google.com/books?id=scJvsb-rGLIC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=Carl+Czerny's+Metronome+Marks+for.+Haydn+and+Mozart+Symphonies&source=bl&ots=9P3WyXmrLE&sig=BxNhm5tsQVS1b3VGvhR2Zb8yz7o&hl=en&ei=GthBTbDCCsvAgQfVteC9AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Carl%20Czerny's%20Metronome%20Marks%20for.%20Haydn%20and%20Mozart%20Symphonies&f=false

http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/XXI/3/437.full.pdf
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/XVI/1/72.full.pdf

[Gurn Blanston]

Hans,
Thanks so much for these attachments! I shall pore over them tonight. I have read some quotes from the 2nd one, so it will be nice to see them in context.   

[Clever Hans]

Hans,
Thanks so much for these attachments! I shall pore over them tonight. I have read some quotes from the 2nd one, so it will be nice to see them in context.   

Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full

[DavidRoss]

Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full

Hmmm.  Brown's suggestion that no period performance practice Beethoven recordings use tempo rubato make me question his familiarity with Brüggen's cycle.

[Gurn Blanston]

Sure thing! Fun for geeky moods.
You should check out Clive Brown's article on Immerseel's Beethoven as well. The part on staccato markings in particular is very interesting, and you can see how this kind of thinking has influenced e.g. Harnoncourt's interpretations.
http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/4/667.full

I am bullheaded not to subscribe to it. It has such great articles. Somehow, being an amateur has kept me from jumping in with the professionals. My bad...

Thanks again!

[Antoine Marchand]

I am bullheaded not to subscribe to it. It has such great articles. Somehow, being an amateur has kept me from jumping in with the professionals. My bad...

I prefer to remain an amateur, a dilettante, even if you want an ugly word: a hobbyist. I don't make money with the music, I spend my money in music. 

P.S.: No offense intended to our professional musicians and critics here.... It was just an opportunity to use the word "dilettante". 

P.S. 2: I also know Gurn was not expressing a desire of being a "professional"... but, again, I like the word "dilettante". 

[RJR]

To Sarge, three years later
I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that classical composers wanted their minuets to sound anything other than a minuet. If there were such evidence, then most conductors, not just a few, would have altered the tempos decades ago. Hogwood's reasoning--that it makes the repeats easier to bear--seems like anachronistic reasoning: we live in a faster paced world so we get impatient with the repeats and assume 18th century listeners did too. But, hey, they had nothing better to do than to listen to music in the dark...the longer the music the better 

Right on, Sarge!

And operas were the 19th century equivalent of early moving pictures.

By the way, are you familiar with the Pantechnicon? I think that's how it's spelled. It was the size of a cathedral organ and could qualify as the first jukebox, so to speak. There was a doc on PBS about it some four or five years ago.

[Brahmsian]

Indeed. And the 5th year anniversary of my foray into western classical music.

Happy Anniversary, Opus106!  My, how time flies!! 

[Opus106]

Am I the only one seeing a June 2010 date-stamp on the recently resurrected post of Sarge's?

Happy Anniversary, Opus106!  My, how time flies!! 

Thank you.

[RJR]

P.S. 2: I also know Gurn was not expressing a desire of being a "professional"... but, again, I like the word "dilettante". 

We are amateur music lovers. We keep the home fires burning and ensure the survival of classical music. We are akin to the book reader/memorizers in Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451

[Brahmsian]

Am I the only one seeing a June 2010 date-stamp on the recently resurrected post of Sarge's?

No, I see that as well.

[RJR]

Sure you can:

You forgot Boston Blackie.

[Opus106]

No, I see that as well.

Then you will agree that post is only a little older than 7 months, yes?