Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)

[FideLeo]

When I clicked the link, it took me to Amazon US, and then verbally abused and berated me for asking for something it didn't recognize.    

No! You can't possibly mean that!    Well, it's an ORF recording which explains why it is more readily available in Europe.  But do consider the Aryton/Gluxam recording as I find quite a bit that is percussionistic in these four-hand sonatas, and that makes them sound particularly infectious and vivid when played on a cembalo/harpsichord! 

A harpsichord recording of 19d can also be heard on this rather nice disc, along with some other music from the same tradition:


http://www.amazon.com/Two-Play-Harpsichord-Music-Hands/dp/B00002639S

ps. What I wanted to say is amplified by the Amazon review for the recording above.  I quote: "Superb harpsichord music ... Mozart, Handel, J.C. Bach, Tomkins. Energizing, powerful, beautiful, skillful, gracious, clever, ominous ... listen stereophonically with headphones; listen in your car ... magnificent. I find it ubiquitously encompassing and exquisitely pleasing to my senses ... daemonic. Perfection."  Very good! 

[Gurn Blanston]

On several ocassions, I have considered this one:



Mozart - Sonatas for Piano Duet (Complete)
Kocsis, Ránki, harpsichord, piano

It includes some harpsichord playing and the pieces on piano sound excellent.

Disc 1
Sonata for keyboard 4 hands in C major, K. 19d
Sonata for piano 4 hands in D major, K. 381
Sonata for piano 4 hands in B flat major, K. 358
Sonata for piano 4 hands in G major, K. 357 (Completed by J. Andre)

Disc 2
Sonata for piano 4 hands in F major, K. 497
Sonata for piano 4 hands in C major, K. 521

Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks Guys for all of the responses - there seems to be a LOT recorded but not easy to obtain, as usual -    Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

No! You can't possibly mean that!    Well, it's an ORF recording which explains why it is more readily available in Europe.  But do consider the Aryton/Gluxam recording as I find quite a bit that is percussionistic in these four-hand sonatas, and that makes them sound particularly infectious and vivid when played on a cembalo/harpsichord! 

A harpsichord recording of 19d can also be heard on this rather nice disc, along with some other music from the same tradition:


http://www.amazon.com/Two-Play-Harpsichord-Music-Hands/dp/B00002639S

That looks interesting too. I have a disk on cpo of JC Bach works for Keyboard 4 hands, I rather like it. Haydn also wrote a few pieces (Hob XVIIa) for 4 hand, they can be had on Schornsheim's set, and probably elsewhere although I haven't sen them. So there is a bit of a tradition in that period for the genre.

[Antoine Marchand]

Thanks for that info, Antoine. I have seen this disk, but nothing in the very limited information in the entry leads one to believe that it might be PI. Especially not knowing the players.

Yes the info is very, very limited. I have listened to some tracks via NML, but I am confused, for instance, about the harpsichord used (if it is a harpsichord at all) because it sounds like those generic instruments from the fifties and sixties. Just one sonata is played on that instrument (K. 19d) and the remaining pieces are played on modern piano. Anyway, the interpretations are quite good.   

[SonicMan46]

Thanks Guys for all of the responses - there seems to be a LOT recorded but not easy to obtain, as usual -    Dave

Well, in trying to look up some of the Piano Duets mentioned I came across the 2-CD set shown below which includes all of the works on the set w/ Kocsis - some excellent musicians from probably a ways back (not sure of the dates) nor the combination of instruments used - the Amzonian Reviews are quite good - has anyone heard this Philips Duo set?   

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, in trying to look up some of the Piano Duets mentioned I came across the 2-CD set shown below which includes all of the works on the set w/ Kocsis - some excellent musicians from probably a ways back (not sure of the dates) nor the combination of instruments used - the Amzonian Reviews are quite good - has anyone heard this Philips Duo set?   

Yes, they are all on modern instruments (even the Badura-Skoda!!) but that is not to say that they aren't very nice. They are all included in 2 other places: you saw that Complete Works for Keyboard, maybe 10 disks or so, by Ingrid Haebler? They are all in there. Also, in the Philips Complete Mozart Edition, they are all in there too. So this Duo has taken and made it easier to get just the 4 hand works. I have the Haebler box set, and I think they are just fine. I especially like Haebler; she may have played a modern piano, but she knew well how to play it in a discreet manner that works very well with Mozart. You wouldn't be disappointed unless you are totally committed to the PI concept.

[Antoine Marchand]

Yes, they are all on modern instruments (even the Badura-Skoda!!)...

Sorry, but these days I am in a specially off-topic humor: Yesterday I saw his first complete cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Gramola, 9-CD set), also played on a modern instrument (his famous Bosendorfer Imperial piano), for $47.65, VAT excl., on MDT. Just in case. 

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//GRAM98742.htm

[Gurn Blanston]

Sorry, but these days I am in a specially off-topic humor: Yesterday I saw his first complete cycle of Beethoven's piano sonatas (Gramola, 9-CD set), also played on a modern instrument (his famous Bosendorfer Imperial piano), for $47.65, VAT excl., on MDT. Just in case. 

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//GRAM98742.htm

Yes, Todd bought and nicely reviewed that set here somewhere. I suspect that I am much happier with my Astrée set on 38 (OK, just kidding) different instruments, but for modern piano folk, I understand it is pretty good. I also have a set (on EuropaDisk, IIRC) which doesn't even mention what instrument he plays the complete Mozart on, but it doesn't sound at all like his Schantz or Walter keyboards, it may even be a modern piano, as it is pretty resonant. I don't particularly like it, compared to the Naive set.

[Antoine Marchand]

Yes, Todd bought and nicely reviewed that set here somewhere. I suspect that I am much happier with my Astrée set on 38 (OK, just kidding) different instruments, but for modern piano folk, I understand it is pretty good. I also have a set (on EuropaDisk, IIRC) which doesn't even mention what instrument he plays the complete Mozart on, but it doesn't sound at all like his Schantz or Walter keyboards, it may even be a modern piano, as it is pretty resonant. I don't particularly like it, compared to the Naive set.

It's true that Naïve set is excellent; but unfortunately and totally OOP. I hope it will be re-released at some point in the next years because I don't have the originals, just CD-R copies. Anyway, I don't have any problem listening to Beethoven's solo keyboard music played on modern piano which is not usually the case with Mozart and specially with Haydn. For me Haydn's keyboard music usually lose a great part of its life when it is played on modern piano. That's not the case with Beethoven at all. For instance, I have that excellent set recorded on Claves by Bilson and his former students (van Oort, Beghin, Dütschler, Meniker, Breitman and Willis) and several single discs on fortepiano, but I don't love that set or those single discs more than Annie Fischer or Arrau recordings. It's curious because I feel more decisive the period instruments even in Schubert (I feel, for instance, that Badura-Skoda and Bilson are totally revelatory in a way forbidden to modern instruments).   

[Gurn Blanston]

It's true that Naïve set is excellent; but unfortunately and totally OOP. I hope it will be re-released at some point in the next years because I don't have the originals, just CD-R copies. Anyway, I don't have any problem listening to Beethoven's solo keyboard music played on modern piano which is not usually the case with Mozart and specially with Haydn. For me Haydn's keyboard music usually lose a great part of its life when it is played on modern piano. That's not the case with Beethoven at all. For instance, I have that excellent set recorded on Claves by Bilson and his former students (van Oort, Beghin, Dütschler, Meniker, Breitman and Willis) and several single discs on fortepiano, but I don't love that set or those single discs more than Annie Fischer or Arrau recordings. It's curious because I feel more decisive the period instruments even in Schubert (I feel, for instance, that Badura-Skoda and Bilson are totally revelatory in a way forbidden to modern instruments).   

Yes, that is true also for me, Antoine. I have many, many Beethoven disks on modern instrument and they somehow don't bother me nearly as much as the works of his <>contemporaries played that way. Still, that is not to say that a well played fortepiano doesn't please my ear more than a well-played modern instrument, no matter the pre-1840 composer. And despite all odds, I will take my Kempff recordings over many others, damn the critics!

This is the Mozart I am specifically talking about, despite that there are many flavors of it out there:

[asin]B000BK53NI[/asin]

I didn't know it had gone extinct. I have Amazon telling me that I purchased it in September of 2008, not so very long ago.



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Now playing:
USSR Symphony Orchestra / Svetlanov - Glazunov Op 16 Symphony #2 in f# 2nd mvmt - Andante

[FideLeo]

This is the Mozart I am specifically talking about, despite that there are many flavors of it out there:

I didn't know it had gone extinct. I have Amazon telling me that I purchased it in September of 2008, not so very long ago.

I have three of these discs (for the Viennese sonatas) in their first CD incarnation, on Astree-Auvidis label.  Those never quite strike me as being very good as sound engineering goes, with sort of a raw texture sticking out all over the place.   Wonder if the recordings were remastered for the re-release?  If so my impression may be due for a revision. 

Re: Staier's Mozart doesn't sound like it has been played on a fortepiano?  I am quite sure it is because his generally assertive interpretation perfectly matches a transcendental technique, which he has in abundance, although one also shouldn't overlook the fact that he prefers modern copies (e.g. his Anton Walter built by Monika May) than the less reliable originals in choice of instruments.

http://www.youtube.com/v/iTAT-Eboqn0

[FideLeo]

Robert Levin plays concerto in B-flat major with Hogwood conducting - ok sound quality, from youtube.  Many recognised faces in the orchestra where the (British part of the) world of HIP Mozart is concerned. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/ofB8A8KWil8



[asin]B00000HY9I[/asin]

[Scarpia]

The notion occurred to me to get Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle, but listening to excerpts, the brass and winds seem to be weak compared with the strings, although this is based on those maddeningly brief excerpts that can be heard online.  Comments?

[Lethevich]

I'm not sure I would describe them as weak, rather consciously balanced in ensemble. If anything I would feel that Hogwood might be considered a little un-refined/rough at times rather than underpowered, although naturally without turning the music into modern style brass-dominated music as even Mackerras did in his Linn recordings. No other set comes close to the Hogwood in terms of sheer interest - it has an amazing array of (not so) little extras which are fascinating to compare to the familiar numbered pieces. As usual Hogwood varies his instrumentation to what the works specify, and brilliantly avoids the feeling of one-size-fits-all which I tend to find with, say, Pinnock, when comparing performances both in Mozart and Haydn.

But this is just in case you don't get many replies to your question - the more classical period-focused members of the forum I am sure can offer stronger insight.

[Scarpia]

I'm not sure I would describe them as weak, rather consciously balanced in ensemble. If anything I would feel that Hogwood might be considered a little un-refined/rough at times rather than underpowered, although naturally without turning the music into modern style brass-dominated music as even Mackerras did in his Linn recordings. No other set comes close to the Hogwood in terms of sheer interest - it has an amazing array of (not so) little extras which are fascinating to compare to the familiar numbered pieces. As usual Hogwood varies his instrumentation to what the works specify, and brilliantly avoids the feeling of one-size-fits-all which I tend to find with, say, Pinnock, when comparing performances both in Mozart and Haydn.

But this is just in case you don't get many replies to your question - the more classical period-focused members of the forum I am sure can offer stronger insight.

Thanks for your comments!  I have Mackerras's Telarc set, which I like a lot.  (I've heard some of the newer recordings from Mac and I don't think they measure up.)  I also have Harnoncourt's Concertebouw recordings, and I can't imagine anything bettering those in musical terms.  But I feel an inclination to have an HIP set.  Hogwood definitely has the nasal woodwind and brass tone going for him but I worry he might be too polite.  Pinnock is out of the question - the sewing maching approach doesn't work for me.  Koopman did a set, but it doesn't seem to have made into the box-set universe.  Bruggen did some too (sometimes I forget Bruggen and Koopman are distinct people).   Hogwood seems to have the most going for him at the moment.

[Gurn Blanston]

The notion occurred to me to get Hogwood's Mozart symphony cycle, but listening to excerpts, the brass and winds seem to be weak compared with the strings, although this is based on those maddeningly brief excerpts that can be heard online.  Comments?

Well, please don't criticize Hogwood in this regard. He isn't being perverse at all. But look at the original scoring of any of these works:

K 183 (173dB) Symphony #25 in g minor:  2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 4 horns and strings (most likely 4-4-2-2-1). And I know for a fact that he plays it this way.

K 201 (186a)  Symphony #29 in A major: 2 oboes, 2 horns and strings (again, most likely 4-4-2-2-1).

So they are gonna sound 'light' compared to even the wonderful modern instrument recordings of Mackerras, who most certainly used more players than that. I invested full retail in that set about 10 years ago and have not a single regret. Take sime getting used to, but that's our fault, not Hogwood's.



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Now playing:
Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 26 Sonata in F 2nd mvmt - Rondeau: Allegretto

[Scarpia]

Well, please don't criticize Hogwood in this regard. He isn't being perverse at all. But look at the original scoring of any of these works:

K 183 (173dB) Symphony #25 in g minor:  2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 4 horns and strings (most likely 4-4-2-2-1). And I know for a fact that he plays it this way.

K 201 (186a)  Symphony #29 in A major: 2 oboes, 2 horns and strings (again, most likely 4-4-2-2-1).

So they are gonna sound 'light' compared to even the wonderful modern instrument recordings of Mackerras, who most certainly used more players than that. I invested full retail in that set about 10 years ago and have not a single regret. Take sime getting used to, but that's our fault, not Hogwood's.

Ok.    My notion is that the string section is smaller, so the wind section can come to the fore more than in your typical Karajan recording.  On top of that the winds have a more delicate sound, but so do the strings playing gut instruments, so again winds should be a bit more prominent than in a typical non-HIP performance.  But here is the question.  Given the resources, does Hogwood let the brass play all-out at appropriate moments?  That is what led me to fall in love with Harnoncourt's recordings.  He actually gives the brass the green light to play to the limit at times.

[In the mean time, they jacked up the price on Amazon.]   

[FideLeo]

Hogwood seems to have the most going for him at the moment.

Hogwood's set is most 'complete' (including plenty of addenda) in any case, although the core of it (later symphonies) was recorded the earliest and may seem the strangest when listened to in comparison to others in the field in terms of performing style, balance, etc. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Ok.    My notion is that the string section is smaller, so the wind section can come to the fore more than in your typical Karajan recording.  On top of that the winds have a more delicate sound, but so do the strings playing gut instruments, so again winds should be a bit more prominent than in a typical non-HIP performance.  But here is the question.  Given the resources, does Hogwood let the brass play all-out at appropriate moments? That is what led me to fall in love with Harnoncourt's recordings.  He actually gives the brass the green light to play to the limit at times.

[In the mean time, they jacked up the price on Amazon.]   

And the short answer to that question: I don't know, amigo. To me, they play appropriately at all times. The only PI recordings I have to judge them against are Pinnock's (other than the last ones, of course, which every old horn in the world has taken a blow at ). And to me, there is no question that they play much more colorfully than the English Concert in these disks (despite that I like the EC, they get blown away here). A lot of this has to come from adjusting your mindset (ear set?) to the fact that in this context, there is no 'weight of the orchestra' by our standards. I was reading an excellent essay on Haydn's reception just last week. The term 'sublime' comes up in a couple of spots, and its usage there is based on the fact that his entire orchestra was playing full out suddenly. Well, the author was quick to point out that the entire orchestra for that work was 19 people, and when played identically today it makes little or no impression at all, and yet writers from the time are quite amazed at the din that was created at that particular point. It wouldn't have been any different with Mozart.