Mozart in Period Performances (HIP)

[Opus106]

Is this variety of emotion, this changing dramatic, affective landscape, an "after-market (so to speak) accessory"?I always thought that Harnoncourt was sympathetic to historical performance.

You may not have the recording. I can always upload it on to goear if you want to hear it.

I'm not Gurn, but your description seems to suggest a Sturm und Drang performance.

[DavidW]

I think it's a case of Harnoncourt has a unique vision, and when it works BOY DOES IT WORK.  This is not really about PI vs MI, it's about one conductor doing something amazing.  And that's how it should be... judge a recording based on artistic merit not on whether they are hip, quasi-hip, modern, romantic etc etc

[Bogey]

Interesting thing happened at the Mozart concert tonight.  The conductor pointed out that he had the first and second violins sit on the opposite sides tonight.  He explained that back in Mozart's day that this was typical because of the room constraints for playing operas.  Never heard this.  Has anyone here?

[eyeresist]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. I believe the 20th century norm of all violins to the left was introduced by Stokowski. The change wasn't completely monolithic - when Boult recorded the Elgar symphonies in the 1960s, he was very put out at being made to conform to this "modern" layout. Someone with more expertise in HIP may be able to tell us, but I suspect all the practioners use antiphonal placement (as it can be called) for their strings. I personally prefer it, because it makes the interplay of the firsts and seconds not only clearer but more dynamic, with a kind of call-and-response across the orchestra.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. I believe the 20th century norm of all violins to the left was introduced by Stokowski. The change wasn't completely monolithic - when Boult recorded the Elgar symphonies in the 1960s, he was very put out at being made to conform to this "modern" layout. Someone with more expertise in HIP may be able to tell us, but I suspect all the practioners use antiphonal placement (as it can be called) for their strings. I personally prefer it, because it makes the interplay of the firsts and seconds not only clearer but more dynamic, with a kind of call-and-response across the orchestra.

Ditto. 

Mostly the rationale for it isn't discussed, but I would agree that delineating the parts more clearly by having the voices come from different parts of the ensemble is a very reasonable reason. In any case, it was standard procedure even when an orchestra was just 12 people. From the time of divided parts.

[Bogey]

Thanks!  It was very nice and they sounded great.  It rained through most of the concert, but we were under the roofing.  The venue is fairly small.  Should have taken time to count the members of the orchestra, as it seemed paired down, but was enjoying the music too much.  Either way, it was fourth straight year of attending this concert as a family.  I dug up the four concerts our family has seen together:

2008
Overture from the Abduction from the Seraglio, K. 384,
Piano Concerto No. 20, K. 466 and
Symphony No. 39 in E flat major, K. 543.

2009
Overture to The Marriage of Figaro
Sinfonia concertante for violin, viola, and orchestra in E-flat Major, K. 364
Symphony No. 40 in G minor, K. 550

2010
Serenade No. 12 in C minor
"Voi che sapete" from Le Nozze di Figaro
"Come scoglio" from Cosi fan tutte
Exsultate jubilate
Symphony No. 38, "Prague"

2011
Overture to Don Giovanni
Oboe Concerto in C Major, K. 314
Eine kleine Nachtmusik (Serenade No. 13 for strings in G major, K. 525) 
Symphony No. 29 in A Major, K. 201/186a

There was a second concert the next evening in 2009 where they did Symph. #41, but we missed out.

[Roberto]

Greetings to Everybody!

I am a new member on this forum from Hungary. (So please excuse me for my English.) I can't play any instrument. I even can't read score. I just love to listening to classical music. Please keep this in your mind when you read my opinion.
Nowadays I started to compare the "main" HIP Mozart piano concertos (this is why I found this forum). I downloaded some of them but I bought (and I will buy) many of them. The review will be available on my homepage but only in Hungarian. I write some observations here.

Now I am familiar with Immerseel, Sofronitsky and Levin (I bought their CDs). I downloaded Staier, Brautigam and some of Bilson. I will buy the entire Bilson/Gardiner set also. I listened to these mainly on earphones but I listened to the CDs on my stereo system too.

The best series for me is Levin/Hogwood/AAM unambiguously. Levin absolutely understands the mozartian "musical-drama", his improvisations are first-rate. The orchestra plays full of joy and empathy and their playing is excellent. Just listen to the 2nd movement of the concerto no.23.: Levin's ornamentation enforces the dark, sad character of the music. The last movement played by fiery joy which is brilliant. But I noticed in his every recording: his using of rubato is appropriate, his (and the orchestra's) structural sense are perfect, the tempos are superb. Maybe the sound quality sometimes dry (but violins are never harsh) and the sound of the fortepiano is weak on 2 CDs. And he don't use damper (except 1 CD).

Immerseel's album was the first what I bought some years ago and this was the first which showed me all Mozart piano concertos first time. The sound of the Anima Eterna is great but sometimes too strings-based. The sound of the fortepiano was good when I listened on stereo system but it was too far when I listened on earphones. I think Immerseel gives a Beethovenian, romantic character to these concertos (compared to other HIP recording). The tempo sometimes surprisingly slow which is great at the 2nd movements but too slow at the outer movements. (Maybe somebody considered it boring.) The sound of the recordings is polite and silky. The playing of Immerseel is full of dynamic gradiation (I don't know if it is the correct word) but the whole album is not so exciting. But it was my first and I think it is worth get to know it. And it has a unique quality: it shows how Mozart developed his piano concertos; how them became more forceful, how the orchestration became more complex. It is obvious when I listened to them in order. Immerseel wrote about it in the booklet also. I don't find this even in Levin's recordings.

Sofronitsky: I have the new Etcetera album. Well... The sound of the fortepiano is great. He uses the damper artistically (like Immerseel). The woodwinds are in front which adds much to the experience. His tempos are sometimes good (my two favorite are the concertos no. 24. and 25. with her. Maybe because of Levin never recorded these...). The orchestra plays with joy. But! The instruments are so close sometimes that it is disturbing. (But sometimes is not: we can hear the full bass phrase like nowhere else.) The flutes sometimes make loud fizzing noise (I don't know if it is the correct phare). The strings sometimes harsh. And the orchestra sometimes plays like an amateur orchestra. It is obvious when I compared to AAM or even Anima Eterna. (They even made mistake.) There is no structural sense. Sofronitsky doesn't use the rubato like Levin. His ornamentations are not always fits to the music (just listen again the middle movement of no. 23.). She doesn't understand the mozartian musical-drama. His playing sometimes mechanic and lifeless (but at least fast...). He use dynamical gradiation too less (just compare the cadenza of no. 5's first movement with Immerseel). In my opinion it is a good set but far from great.

Have a great day!

[DavidW]

I agree with your comments about Immerseel, disagree with your comments about Viviana (who is a she btw), and have not heard the Levin set since it is oop.  I would not call V. Sofronitsky mechanical in the least.

[Roberto]

I bought Levin CDs on Amazon Marketplace last month. When I first downloaded Sofronitsky's album and listened to it on earphones I was very impressed. I don't know. Maybe you are right but compared to Immerseel or Levin she uses lesser dynamical levels and her tempo is not so flexible. She just plays the notes one by one and nothing more. Of course this is not all the time and she has great moments also when she plays with flexibility. I think this set profits from the unique sound quality and soundstage. But when I listened to it more and more and when I compare to other performances I see its weakness. Maybe the harpsichord concertos are better but I didn't listened to them until now. (Of course, there is no perfect performance but I agree with Classics Today's review: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951.)

[SonicMan46]

Hello Roberto - welcome to the GMG Forum - 

I've not responded to this thread in over a year - ouch!  However, I did acquire the Viviana Sofronitzki set on the original label shortly after my previous post - now this gal has CREDENTIALS!  She is the daughter of Vladimir S. and the grand daughter of Alexander Scriabin (some of those genes must have rubbed off in her obvious talent); plus, her husband is Paul McNulty who built her fortepiano (and I'm sure that the instrument was kept well in tune!).

Now I must agree w/ David, I do enjoy her performances of these works, and I like the 'up front' nature of the recording (but that is what I prefer) - the orchestra has received some 'mixed' reviews but I find Viviana's playing generally outstanding - in fact, I'm about to put on the first 2 discs of the set having not given the box a listen in a while!

Jed Distler's rather brief and negative review seems in his usual style - he is not one of my favorites and his opinions are often not that useful (at least to me); now for a much longer and rational review check out the one Dominy Clemens on MusicWeb HERE; there is also a link in the latter review to the comments on the earlier release (which helped to prompt my purchase).

My only other PI set is w/ Bilson, so cannot provide the extensive notes left by Roberto - 

[Antoine Marchand]

I bought Levin CDs on Amazon Marketplace last month. When I first downloaded Sofronitsky's album and listened to it on earphones I was very impressed. I don't know. Maybe you are right but compared to Immerseel or Levin she uses lesser dynamical levels and her tempo is not so flexible. She just plays the notes one by one and nothing more. Of course this is not all the time and she has great moments also when she plays with flexibility. I think this set profits from the unique sound quality and soundstage. But when I listened to it more and more and when I compare to other performances I see its weakness. Maybe the harpsichord concertos are better but I didn't listened to them until now. (Of course, there is no perfect performance but I agree with Classics Today's review: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11951.)

Hi, Roberto. Welcome aboard! I agree with you. I think Sofronitsky's style is generally a bit stiff. I clearly prefer Bilson (my personal favorite), Immerseel and Levin. It's curious, you're right about the concertos played on harpsichord; there her style sounds more flexible, imaginative and joyful in a sense that I didn't feel in the fortepiano discs. IMO, CD11 is the best of the series. It's weird because even the ensemble Musica Antiqua Collegium Varsoviense sounds more comfortable in those concerti. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi, Roberto. Welcome aboard! I agree with you. I think Sofronitsky's style is generally a bit stiff. I clearly prefer Bilson (my personal favorite), Immerseel and Levin. It's curious, you're right about the concertos played on harpsichord; there her style sounds more flexible, imaginative and joyful in a sense that I didn't feel in the fortepiano discs. IMO, CD11 is the best of the series. It's weird because even the ensemble Musica Antiqua Collegium Varsoviense sounds more comfortable in those concerti.

That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner.

[Antoine Marchand]

That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner.

It's a relief, Gurn! We're friends again! 

[Gurn Blanston]

It's a relief, Gurn! We're friends again! 

There was never an alternative!

[DavidW]

You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top??   I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings...

[Gurn Blanston]

You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top??   I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings...

It can't stay in print forever! Of course, the box set sucks , you must have the original Archiv singles with the beautiful flowers on the cover...  0:)

[Sergeant Rock]

That makes 2 of us who recommend Bilson then. I was not particularly impressed with Sofronitzky either. I like Immerseel, I really like Levin, but ultimately if I can just have one, it will be Bilson/Gardiner.

Make it three votes for Bilson. I tried Sofronitsky but really didn't enjoy the raw sound.

You HIPsters actually put in print set at the top??   I'm surprised, I thought you only elevated oop sets to the hall of fame! You know a bit of snobbery for rare recordings...

As Gurn says, you must have the individual OOP flower discs. Have no fear, David, snobbery and elitism still rule 

Sarge

[Leon]

There's some interesting HIP Mozart on Naxos Music Library.  Aside from the complete Sofronitsky I found a nice selection of some that I knew about and some I did not know about:

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 17, 18, 19, 25 (Schornsheim, New Bach Musicum Collegium Leipzig, Glaetzner)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 6, 9, 20, 21 (Patrick Cohen, Limoges Baroque Ensemble, Coin)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 9, 13, 21 and 23 (Linda Nicholson, Capella Coloniensis, Kraemer)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 12, 25 (Marian Migdal, Cappella Coloniensis, Bjorlin)

MOZART, W.A.: Piano Concertos Nos. 9, "Jeunehomme" and 12 (Brautigam, Kolner Akademie, Willens)

I'm listening to the Schornsheim right now, and wish she'd do more because they are really nice.

You can find these by searching "mozart concertos forte piano" (without the quotes).

[SonicMan46]

Well All - appears that Viviana is being 'raked over the coals' - 

I do own the Bilson recordings which I also prefer, so maybe I should look into another PI box?   

[Gurn Blanston]

Well All - appears that Viviana is being 'raked over the coals' - 

I do own the Bilson recordings which I also prefer, so maybe I should look into another PI box?   

I haven't looked for them in a long time, Dave, but if you want some PI Mozart fortepiano works, Bilson's sonata set is hard to beat too. Just sayin'...



Edit:  This one, actually:

[asin]B000FI9OKE[/asin]