The Dating Thread

[Ken B]

I can't tell you what women want. But I suspect the first thing they want is to be treated like equal human beings.

If you thought snyprrr was depressed by Abe's post ...

[ibanezmonster]

If that ever became the norm (that photo), society is clearly fucked. However, I've known people for whom it was the opposite. I used to know a guy around my age who looked like a genuine creep- ridiculously skinny and prematurely balding with messed up teeth. He also worked with me, which meant he wasn't making much at all. His wife though, is very pretty and I wonder how it happened.

My only guess is that it has something to do with his personality- always pissed off and cynical. And I overheard something he said which explains his attitude towards women: "that's how you keep them in line." I suppose it was the attitude that he is boss, even if though he is really ugly and poor, that attracted a pretty wife.

And should I even mention the hot Polish girl who only dated black guys that physically abused her, even though she could date anyone she wanted?... (maybe I should stop there) 

[Brian]

A quick word to some of the guys in this thread: if you're going to be so incredibly shallow about women, don't be put out when they do the same to you.

Best of luck, Greg, but I sure as hell wouldn't see this thread as helping you that much. Still, what do I know, I'm single and gay so I can't tell you what women want. But I suspect the first thing they want is to be treated like equal human beings.

There's so much inane, offensive misogynist bullshit in this thread from lonely men who are trying to excuse their failures, that I'm sure never to click on this thread again.

[ibanezmonster]

There's so much inane, offensive misogynist bullshit in this thread from lonely men who are trying to excuse their failures, that I'm sure never to click on this thread again.

What specifically other than a generalized statement?

[NorthNYMark]

If that ever became the norm (that photo), society is clearly fucked. However, I've known people for whom it was the opposite. I used to know a guy around my age who looked like a genuine creep- ridiculously skinny and prematurely balding with messed up teeth. He also worked with me, which meant he wasn't making much at all. His wife though, is very pretty and I wonder how it happened.

My only guess is that it has something to do with his personality- always pissed off and cynical. And I overheard something he said which explains his attitude towards women: "that's how you keep them in line." I suppose it was the attitude that he is boss, even if though he is really ugly and poor, that attracted a pretty wife.

And should I even mention the hot Polish girl who only dated black guys that physically abused her, even though she could date anyone she wanted?... (maybe I should stop there) 

Both women and men have been known to make irrational, seemingly (and sometimes truly) self-destructive dating/relationship choices. To decide that bad behavior is what really attracts women (as if there is anything that attracts women generally, rather than specific, individual women) will only end in disaster, I suspect.  It seems to me that the question is not "What do women want," but what kind of woman you want, and what kind of person you think that woman would be attracted to.  For some reason, I suspect that bitterness about women in general (which has been a common theme among many of the replies here, save for Sarge, Jochanaan, and Orfeo) would not be an attractive trait to the kind of woman you would wish to attract.  Saying really cruel things about a woman you find unattractive in a picture is probably not going to be especially endearing to those women whom you might find attractive, either.  [And I really do not see the point of that photograph in the first place--if it really were such a common sight (as claimed by the poster), would it have provoked the horrified response it was obviously intended to?]

Anyway, I really think it sounds like your only problem is not being in a position to meet enough single women.  It may get easier when your circumstances change.  I was in a similar position for a while--in my case, as a gay man living in a relatively remote, rural area.  For me, the online route was really the only option, but like you, I found very few people in my region on Match, POF, etc.  Even further out (over an hour away), the closest cities to me are across the border in Canada, and few Ottowans or Montrealers used those sites.  What made the difference for me was finding the sites the Canadians used--eventually, I met my current partner of five years.  In your case, you may just need to expand your geographic range to include the larger city nearest to you.  Alternatively, you could just wait a little longer until your situation changes (as you mentioned possibly moving to NYC in a year).  But I hope you won't start resenting women in general, because that could just end up ruining things when you do meet someone who could be right for you.

[ibanezmonster]

Both women and men have been known to make irrational, seemingly (and sometimes truly) self-destructive dating/relationship choices. To decide that bad behavior is what really attracts women (as if there is anything that attracts women generally, rather than specific, individual women) will only end in disaster, I suspect.  It seems to me that the question is not "What do women want," but what kind of woman you want, and what kind of person you think that woman would be attracted to.  For some reason, I suspect that bitterness about women in general (which has been a common theme among many of the replies here, save for Sarge, Jochanaan, and Orfeo) would not be an attractive trait to the kind of woman you would wish to attract.  Saying really cruel things about a woman you find unattractive in a picture is probably not going to be especially endearing to those women whom you might find attractive, either.  [And I really do not see the point of that photograph in the first place--if it really were such a common sight (as claimed by the poster), would it have provoked the horrified response it was obviously intended to?]

Anyway, I really think it sounds like your only problem is not being in a position to meet enough single women.  It may get easier when your circumstances change.  I was in a similar position for a while--in my case, as a gay man living in a relatively remote, rural area.  For me, the online route was really the only option, but like you, I found very few people in my region on Match, POF, etc.  Even further out (over an hour away), the closest cities to me are across the border in Canada, and few Ottowans or Montrealers used those sites.  What made the difference for me was finding the sites the Canadians used--eventually, I met my current partner of five years.  In your case, you may just need to expand your geographic range to include the larger city nearest to you.  Alternatively, you could just wait a little longer until your situation changes (as you mentioned possibly moving to NYC in a year).  But I hope you won't start resenting women in general, because that could just end up ruining things when you do meet someone who could be right for you.

I believe you are correct about the geography being the biggest issue... I came to the same conclusion before but thought it would be nicer if it were a problem to do with me, so I can fix it easily. I might reconsider the expanding the travel times/geography for now... (how far would most people travel for a date, though?) That was an interesting story, though, and I appreciate you sharing it!

Yeah, resenting women would be very counterproductive. It'd be better to resent this town. 

[kishnevi]

I think there is nothing wrong with the lady that a wardrobe consultant could not fix.  Get her out of the shorts that are too short for anyone who is not a sex worker, and a non fugly pair of socks, and she would be seen as a beautiful woman.

[ibanezmonster]

I think there is nothing wrong with the lady that a wardrobe consultant could not fix.  Get her out of the shorts that are too short for anyone who is not a sex worker, and a non fugly pair of socks, and she would be seen as a beautiful woman.

IMO the only thing that would help is losing a hundred pounds or so.

ok, I'll stop... 

[lisa needs braces]

There's so much inane, offensive misogynist bullshit in this thread from lonely men who are trying to excuse their failures, that I'm sure never to click on this thread again.

Brian, where am I wrong? The cumulative effect of attractive men serially dating young women (and then moving onto younger women) is that other men are screwed out of dating women in their prime (19 to early 30s.) This perfectly fits with human nature, from women tending to find men who are already in relationships as more attractive than single men (pre-selection effect) to men who remarry tending to select women younger then their previous wives.

As I said, I came across this idea (serial monogamy as polygny)  from the 1994 book The Moral Animal, by liberal journalist Robert Wright (and founder of bloggingheads.tv). This is the relevant passage:

http://tinyurl.com/pgqj46q

[NorthNYMark]

I believe you are correct about the geography being the biggest issue... I came to the same conclusion before but thought it would be nicer if it were a problem to do with me, so I can fix it easily. I might reconsider the expanding the travel times/geography for now... (how far would most people travel for a date, though?) That was an interesting story, though, and I appreciate you sharing it!

Yeah, resenting women would be very counterproductive. It'd be better to resent this town. 

Admittedly, having to travel can be tough, so I can see why you want to avoid it if you could--but there are some circumstances where there isn't much of an alternative.  In my case, Ottawa is just over an hour from me, and Montreal is just over two--and since I'm the one living in the remote place, I knew I'd have to plan to do most of the driving (especially since people in larger cities often don't even own cars).  There were certainly some people (even in Ottawa) who thought I simply lived too far away to be worth their time, but I was able to have a pretty active dating life in that situation before I met my partner (who lives in Montreal and has no car, but obviously both of us thought it was worth a bit of inconvenience).  Now, my situation is different from yours in that moving did not look likely for me in the near future due to my academic job, so that may have given me more motivation to make the effort. 

Anyway, it really does sound like your living/working situation makes it hard for you to meet single women, so if you stay in that situation long enough, you'll probably just need to make more of an effort to put yourself in places where you're more likely to meet the kind of women you're seeking.

[lisa needs braces]

This is an illustration of Robert Wright's argument (slight nsfw):

http://i.imgur.com/YT44k8D.png

[lisa needs braces]

Single adults outnumber married adults:

http://nypost.com/2014/09/09/single-adults-now-outnumber-married-adults/

Of course, "single" means different things for your average male under 30 vs your average female under 30. For the former, it truly means "single," with sex being hard to come by. For the latter, it means "still having the option to easily obtain casual sex and friends with benefits arrangements, or being a side piece to some top male who considers me his second girlfriend." Let's just admit dating is harder for men in today's America.

[lisa needs braces]

Where are the women?

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2009/08/where-are-women.html

[NorthNYMark]

Brian, where am I wrong? The cumulative effect of attractive men serially dating young women (and then moving onto younger women) is that other men are screwed out of dating women in their prime (19 to early 30s.) This perfectly fits with human nature, from women tending to find men who are already in relationships as more attractive than single men (pre-selection effect) to men who remarry tending to select women younger then their previous wives.

As I said, I came across this idea (serial monogamy as polygny)  from the 1994 book The Moral Animal, by liberal journalist Robert Wright (and founder of bloggingheads.tv). This is the relevant passage:

http://tinyurl.com/pgqj46q

I'm not Brian, but while it is certainly the case that many men have a really unfortunate tendency to leave their wives for younger "replacements," more recent generations have been marrying later and staying married longer than the boomers, and the vast majority of younger women I know tend to date men close to their own age.  Reading your post, I would expect that most of my female students would be rejecting the male students in favor of all these divorced older men, but that just isn't happening--what happens a lot, though, is women (including those who would be considered very, very, attractive by most standards) getting treated pretty poorly by guys they are dating.  If indeed younger women are turning to older men, one might have to ask what role younger men might be playing in that situation. However, most of my female friends who are now or have recently been single would definitely prefer attractive, financially and emotionally stable men their own age. 

Also, I kind of wonder whether or not there is a double standard at play--presumably, if these attractive rich men are supposedly replacing their wives for younger women, as you age, more of these attractive women will become available--unless you only consider women much younger than yourself worthy of attention.  In general, unlike the picture you provided, it seems like a lot of men don't realize what "league" they belong in and have unrealistic expectations--they think they can be overweight, for example, but the woman cannot (do you really think that women are that much more overweight than men on average, as the picture would imply?).

Finally, including that picture, in this particular context, was gratuitous and cruel, IMO.  It does nothing to demonstrate your point, as we don't even know whether or not they are a couple, much less what they find attractive about one another if they are (for example, some people are specifically attracted to heavier people).  The idea that the guy had to "settle" because all the women in his "league" are with attractive older men is insulting to both of them (if they even are a couple), and highly, highly unlikely, IMO. The only thing that picture did was provide an opportunity for people to respond in horror to someone (a human being) they don't find attractive.

[NorthNYMark]

Single adults outnumber married adults:

http://nypost.com/2014/09/09/single-adults-now-outnumber-married-adults/

Of course, "single" means different things for your average male under 30 vs your average female under 30. For the former, it truly means "single," with sex being hard to come by. For the latter, it means "still having the option to easily obtain casual sex and friends with benefits arrangements, or being a side piece to some top male who considers me his second girlfriend." Let's just admit dating is harder for men in today's America.

This is not only misogynist, but completely flies in the face of pretty much anything actually observable in US culture, at least.  Are you really suggesting that the "average" single woman is more promiscuous than the "average" single man?  I would be interested in seeing those statistics.

[lisa needs braces]

This is not only misogynist, but completely flies in the face of pretty much anything actually observable in US culture, at least.  Are you really suggesting that the "average" single woman is more promiscuous than the "average" single man?  I would be interested in seeing those statistics.

There's no data that I can find to support that, just proceeding from the clear fact that female sexuality is more valued and competed for than male sexuality, thereby giving an average young single woman more options to meet their sexual needs and more options to stop being single. I fail to see what's misogynistic about this.

I'm not Brian, but while it is certainly the case that many men have a really unfortunate tendency to leave their wives for younger "replacements," more recent generations have been marrying later and staying married longer than the boomers, and the vast majority of younger women I know tend to date men close to their own age.  Reading your post, I would expect that most of my female students would be rejecting the male students in favor of all these divorced older men, but that just isn't happening--what happens a lot, though, is women (including those who would be considered very, very, attractive by most standards) getting treated pretty poorly by guys they are dating.  If indeed younger women are turning to older men, one might have to ask what role younger men might be playing in that situation. However, most of my female friends who are now or have recently been single would definitely prefer attractive, financially and emotionally stable men their own age. 

Your are reading things into my post I'm in no way claiming. I agree that the vast majority of younger women date men close to their own age (allowing for a few years difference in the man's favor.) I'm saying that attractive men now have the option of serially dating younger, fertile women well into their 40s, or some average guy who has charisma doing the same, perhaps dating women his own exact age until he's 30, and then starting to dip down to women in their mid 20s. The effect is one of slight polygny because he's getting multiple women's "best years." Millions of men engaging in this behavior ends up creating a shortage of dateable women who are in their prime of fertility and beauty, which forces many average guys to date down in terms of looks just to get girlfriends.

Also, I kind of wonder whether or not there is a double standard at play--presumably, if these attractive rich men are supposedly replacing their wives for younger women, as you age, more of these attractive women will become available--unless you only consider women much younger than yourself worthy of attention.  In general, unlike the picture you provided, it seems like a lot of men don't realize what "league" they belong in and have unrealistic expectations--they think they can be overweight, for example, but the woman cannot (do you really think that women are that much more overweight than men on average, as the picture would imply?).

A women's looks is not a permanent and fixed quality, and unfortunately the good looks of women are overwhelmingly concentrated into the second 15 years of their lives. Men are innately attracted to younger women over older women. This is a fact repeatedly demonstrated by cross culture studies. Do not make me quote David M. Buss. The latest evidence is from this recent instantly famous data graph from a new book by the founder of OKCupid:



You are implying that guys who are single are merely failing to realize their "league" and ignoring women who are their match in terms of looks. The reality is the opposite: it's women ignoring men who are their looks match in preference for men out of their league, quite naturally due to the fact that (as the picture clearly implies), young women are competed for not just by their male peers but older males as well. This allows younger women to be far pickier in their mate selection. Before the Sexual Revolution, a woman often married in her early 20s and sacrificed the majority of her fertility window to one man. The Sexual Revolution was significantly about women rebelling against this arrangement. What we have today is young women engaging in serial relationships with alpha males but then settling to marry one of the lesser men they reject in their 20s when it becomes clear that those alpha males have no intention to marry them. Women in their 20s have *tremendous* sexual power, and they are averse to wasting it on men who aren't dominant, attractive, or the top dog in some way. The men who do possess those qualities are amply rewarded. This is a claim about averages, not absolutes. The average rate of heterosexual male sexual activity has remained the same but I'm betting that the variance has increased.

Also: This is a single data point but the mentality of many young women today is not that far off from this:

http://www.slate.com/articles/video/dear_prudence/2014/07/dear_prudence_video_finding_mr_right_too_soon.html?wpsrc=fol_tw

*enjoy my 20s* = ride the cock carousel of alpha males until my late 20s/early 30s.

[Madiel]

One of the stupidest of the stupid things in this thread is to assume that everyone finds the same things attractive. To take a photo of a couple, decide that YOU don't find the girl attractive (from a photo and nothing else about her) and therefore THE GUY IN THE PHOTO doesn't find her attractive and is "dating down" shows an astonishingly poor reasoning process.

The mere fact that some guys like girls and some guys like guys is enough to disprove there is some objective standard of attractiveness.

There was a crack about whether I date people less attractive than myself. No, I date people I find attractive. I know even amongst my gay friends that who we find attractive differs, and that it depends on both looks and personality. I also know that some people find ME attractive and some don't.

Just put away your scorecards and look for mutual attraction. Who gives a damn whether someone else thinks the same.

And Greg, one extra tip I'll give you is never, ever let any girl you like see the remarks you've made about the girl in the photo.

[lisa needs braces]

One of the stupidest of the stupid things in this thread is to assume that everyone finds the same things attractive. To take a photo of a couple, decide that YOU don't find the girl attractive (from a photo and nothing else about her) and therefore THE GUY IN THE PHOTO doesn't find her attractive and is "dating down" shows an astonishingly poor reasoning process.

There are commonalities to what men find attractive, and physical attractiveness is what most men overwhelmingly judge their mates by. Unless that guy is a chubby chaser, he's dating down.

[snyprrr]

Oh! This Thread is just dripping with the most viscous misandry. I'm never clicking on this Thread again!!



























PSYYYCH!![/glow]


Greg, don't let the manginas get you down!

As far as misogyny goes, There's Nothing I Don't Hate in A Women that She Didn't Learn from A Faux-Man

Howz dat?



To all the "haters" out there who might say what a woman wants or saying there is ... oh... that word... "HATE".... woah now daddy-o... are you saying you're dictating what equal IS?

Surely there are women who feel differently. SURELY there are. (cue Mennonite entrouge)


ok, Greg, go find yourself a nice Mennonite girl


(is that what the chorus wants to hear?)

Anyhow, that would be my somewhat real advice to Greg- you must reject this sinful world to find a true woman

(are the haters liking this any better?)



Now, forgive me, but a TRUE Gay Man would most certainly know what a woman wants. I mean, honey,... seriously? Have you not HEARD?... (o- m- g)... what women want?? mm.. dearie, let big sis snippy snapper lay the dark velvet cheese on yo earlobe suga- issa called PowerSexSecurity- PSS... well, you know... (mm, that's right, you don't, mm)-

equality, like beauty, appears to be in the eye of the beholder- so the question remain- who is doing the beholding?



FEMINIST PRINCIPLE NO.17

"The Male Gaze"

Much has been made of what's known as 'The Male Gaze'- that look that only men, throughout history, have bestowed upon women of desire, 'The Look', 'Come Hither', 'I Want You to Want Me'- the look even desperate schmuck throughout all the discos of history has attempted to woo anyone who may be swayed. As the dominant Alpha personality in the mating game, the male has always been the sole possessor or this particular look- the leer- HA!- (yes, you're all guilty!!).

Can there be a feminist version of the 'Male Gaze', or is this a feature which just doesn't work the other way around? Can the feminist reclaim 'The Gaze' for herself? Can there be a 'Female Gaze'?



(Anyhow, you'll have to subscribe to my blog to read the rest of it. It's free for the first thirty days!)


Equal Is As Equal Does


I mean, I'm not the one who brought up the recent NFL fiascos, but, since you made me, I guess we'll have to go there. What? Those who are saying there's woman hate in this Thread, are you saying we sided with the Commissioner or something? Sounds like you're saying something like, "You like football so you must hit/hate women"? I mean, let's not be hyperbolic!!!

In this Western Culture, women have been afforded the greatest freedoms in all of history by the (bah bah bahhh) Halls of Liberty Fraternity and Egaliterie (bah bah baaaah), and have, actually, become equal with me. Yes, equal in stupidity, moral cowardice, and depravity. So, yes, "equal human beings" we all are on this godforsaken slab of steaming star dust. So, yes, I don't know what the problem was, there's all the equality in the world going on in this Thread. God only knows that concepts like misogyny and racism and classism and all that are division-type tactics that are promulgated by the State,... NOT this Thread!

Thank you!




NOW- ON TO GREG'S LOVE LIFE!!

As my duty, I will tell you that by sheer divine intervention I arrived ten minutes after my flaming flame had left. Let me tell you, I couldn't believe I was having a niblet of a feeling- ohh, I missssed her ... the one who said she had the 'complicated life'... oy- (are the haters reading?)- so, I'm just this sensitive little worm and if you poke me I just curl up like a ball to protect my quivering heart... ouch,... did you just have a feeling for the flame with the 'complicated life'?... (see Haters? did that have to be a man/woman thing? no, it wasn't... eeesh, you guys!)

So, Greg, I'm telling you that one could feel my flittering little heart turn a pancake when I heard that 'Complicated' had just left. waaaah,... here, feel my squishy and quivering insides as I lay bare before you... I'm 'the other woman'... oy- ack.... gag.... I'm just validating her whilst she goes through a sticky time with her lovvverrr... oh, shame (hand on forehead)...

hmm??

How did your night go? (don't let the haters get you down- gurrrls R meen!- waaah!!)

[Madiel]

Also, the whole alpha male myth is one of THE most dangerous and revolting things in out culture, as revealed in the wake of the guy in California who killed his roommates and a number of other people because the world wasn't giving him what he was 'entitled' to. Never thought I'd see it here.