The Dating Thread

[NorthNYMark]

I'm not going to quote Snyprr's long, often homophobic post, or try to respond to it point-by-point, because it would just get too long and tedious.  But I do want to try to clear up some of what I perceive to be some pretty huge misperceptions on his part:

First--I don't know where he is getting the notion that anyone is saying that heavier (even obese) people are better than others, that they cannot have personal faults, that losing weight would be a bad thing for them, or that Greg  should find them attractive.  No one has said any such thing, but that seems to be the bulk of what Snyprr appears to be arguing against.  What most people have been objecting to (regarding the photograph) is the outright, cruel, and repeated ridicule based on appearance.  Ridicule, to me, is something I expect people to get over once out of junior high school--now, that doesn't mean that I or the people I respect are necessarily perfect in this regard, but if someone called me out for ridiculing someone else, I'd like to think I'd respond with something like, "Yeah, you're right--I just wasn't thinking."  For what it's worth, I was pleased that Greg apologized at one point, though he seems to have taken it back and defended the broad social acceptability of ridicule, which I find disappointing.  And again, no one is saying Greg should find her attractive, or be open to dating her--in my opinion, we have no control over who we do or don't find attractive. The point is that we don't have to mock people we find unattractive (especially, IMO, when they are already in a group that is a frequent target for ridicule and shunning).

Second--Snyprr seems to believe that those who have criticized his stance here must not value physical health as he does (a point which he has now reiterated in an entirely different thread about weight loss)--this is not necessarily the case.  I am 5'11, 160 pounds, eat healthily, and exercise regularly.  And guess what?  I still think being cruel to people based on their appearance is disgusting.  Why be cruel to anyone (especially anyone who is not actively trying to hurt me or anyone else)?  I might disagree vehemently with someone like Chris Christie on a whole host of issues, but I think it would be wrong to mock him for his appearance.

Third--Snyprr has gone into an extremely ad hominem area here, suggesting that the two gay guys contributing to this discussion (Orfeo and me) must have ulterior motives and in any event cannot possibly have anything to contribute to the issues here.  I'll leave it to others to evaluate this overall position, but I will just add that the only (self-identified) married straight guys who have responded (in other words, the ones presumably most qualified to speak on the subject) seem to have been in broad agreement with Orfeo and me.  Is it really a gay versus straight perspective here, or maybe an older, more experienced versus younger, less experienced perspective at play?  In any event, my advice to Greg had nothing to do with gender, but just dating in general and the work it takes to find someone with whom you're compatible.  I base it not only on my own experience, but also those of countless straight male and female friends of mine who have gone from single to attached.  Ironically, a lot of young gay males have attitudes toward dating and toward judging others very similar to those espoused by Snyprr (as he himself seemed to point out in an earlier post, suggesting that Orfeo and I were likely hypocrites, since he didn't think we were expressing stereotypically gay male points of view).  All I can say is that I respond to gay men posting such opinions in the same way that I have responded here.

Finally, I think it would be a mistake for anyone to vilify Greg here, even though he has made some statements I find very troubling.  He also responded very thoughtfully to an earlier post of mine, and I get the sense that his attitudes seem to be open to change and growth.  If anything, he seems concerned that his not being a stereotypical "alpha male" may be causing him to be single (and Snyprrr is telling him, "Yep, that's your problem.").  Rather than try to box him into that very corner, I'd just pose the question to Greg of what his ideal woman would be like--would she go for a Snyprr-like guy?  My instinct tells me "no way"--but I could well be wrong. But again (and at the risk of falling into a different kind of ad hominem trap)--look at some pretty striking patterns regarding the relationship statuses of who has been giving what type of advice.

[NorthNYMark]

Have you read the article?

I haven't read it, but didn't you make the comments under discussion before you read it either?  If so, then it is not relevant.  I don't think anyone would object to your disagreeing with choices she makes and publicly defends, but that is different from repeatedly ridiculing someone based only on a picture.  At the time you did so, Mirror Image's point was valid.

[Mirror Image]

Have you read the article?

I haven't read the article but nor do I feel any need to, I've got better things to do like listen to some Vaughan Williams.

[ibanezmonster]

Rather than try to box him into that very corner, I'd just pose the question to Greg of what his ideal woman would be like--would she go for a Snyprr-like guy? 

Not sure about the "snyprr-like" guy aspect since I don't know him outside of here. A female version of him- not really. 

Well, it isn't every day that such a wonderful question is asked... Ideally an anime girl... ok, kidding, but
appearance-wise: between 5-2" and 5-7", dark hair, average to thin build, hopefully good sized in the areas that count, but it's not crucial;
personality-wise: be INTERESTING! and funny and nice

Don't just talk about drinking. And drinking. And drinking. As for sharing common interests, it's hard enough finding guy friends with common interests, so I don't really expect it.

I haven't read it, but didn't you make the comments under discussion before you read it either?  If so, then it is not relevant.  I don't think anyone would object to your disagreeing with choices she makes and publicly defends, but that is different from repeatedly ridiculing someone based only on a picture.  At the time you did so, Mirror Image's point was valid.

Sure, it was mean (as I mentioned earlier). Bad me. I just thought orfeo blew it out of proportion. Just a simple, "Dude, that's pretty mean." And then I would have responded: "  ". And then he could have responded: "  ".

[ibanezmonster]

John... what's new?


So I found a video that sums up online dating in the most incredibly lucid way possible. Based on observations, what he's saying is very true. In short, it's completely useless for about 95% of guys and so good for women that it's basically useless for them, too- and he says why.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Qe5_JK_LcEI


The thing that confuses me, though, is some couples I occasionally see... I just wonder how in the world that happened. For example, two Hispanic couples I saw recently- one of a few days ago had a 50+ year old looking dude, ugly and heavy, with a 20-something beautiful girl. And today this ugly dude that's only like 5'1" with a 20-something beautiful girl. And there's the two redneck dudes I knew that had wives that looked waaaaaay better than them. I could post a picture, but I consider one of them a dear friend and just wouldn't do that.

Okay, so how does this happen? I have no clue, but I'm guessing it may be a cultural thing. Two rednecks, two Hispanics... I'm guessing that they didn't pick these people up at the grocery store, but have a network of friends that include their families. They form connections over time and such. My family doesn't have anyone over at the house ever, though. In the last 8 years I've lived here, I don't remember them ever bringing anyone inside other than an aunt and uncle from out of town. Their entire social life is at church.

Also, if people tend to connect because of being in the same culture, wtf kind of culture am I in? I guess I fit in most with the "nerd" group, but nerd females are extremely rare, so that's not really a bonus. 

[ibanezmonster]

It's funny how this thread title sounds pathetic, but in reality, as he mentioned, online dating is only successful for about 4% of guys, so if my experiment with it actually worked, there would be something vastly more odd with it. Probably would end up getting scammed for a free meal or meet a nutcase in the case it "worked" (meaning actually getting a date using it). 

[North Star]

Greg, not everything is about looks.

[ibanezmonster]

Greg, not everything is about looks.

Is that an ironic statement? 

I'm less superficial than an average woman on a dating site. Like the video said, since so many women get such a ridiculous amount of messages each day, they have to look for the most superficial qualities (looks, first of all) before making a decision to even message back. (the video goes into more detail)

Besides that, the two redneck dudes... okay, neither have a lot of money. They don't have exceptional personalities, either. One has a nice, easygoing personality and the other has a somewhat shitty, grumpy personality. What do they really have to offer? That's what I'm wondering.

[North Star]

Is that an ironic statement? 

I'm less superficial than an average woman on a dating site. Like the video said, since so many women get such a ridiculous amount of messages each day, they have to look for the most superficial qualities (looks, first of all) before making a decision to even message back. (the video goes into more detail)

Besides that, the two redneck dudes... okay, neither have a lot of money. They don't have exceptional personalities, either. One has a nice, easygoing personality and the other has a somewhat shitty, grumpy personality. What do they really have to offer? That's what I'm wondering.

OK, not everything is about looks or money.
Also, 'average woman' ≠ 'average woman on a dating site'

[ibanezmonster]

OK, not everything is about looks or money.

Yes, but you are missing the part where these guys don't have personalities that are particularly exceptional. One is a bit like me and the other is way worse.

Also, 'average woman' ≠ 'average woman on a dating site'

True, and I didn't know this at first. Realizing this, many things are explained now. 

[North Star]

Yes, but you are missing the part where these guys don't have personalities that are particularly exceptional. One is a bit like me and the other is way worse.

Obviously the women they're with see more in them, for whatever reason.

[Mirror Image]

Greg, I think you're analyzing all of this stuff just way too much. If you're confident and just honest with who you are, then you'll find someone. It might not be right this very second or even a year from now, but you've got to keep trying and stop thinking so much.

[ibanezmonster]

Also, 'average woman' ≠ 'average woman on a dating site'

I probably should mention that I found 3 that are real and normal- both I sort of know or know about. (though it is unknown whether they were there for attention or actually serious about it...)

Greg, I think you're analyzing all of this stuff just way too much. If you're confident and just honest with who you are, then you'll find someone. It might not be right this very second or even a year from now, but you've got to keep trying and stop thinking so much.

That sounds nice and all, but I'm almost 27, and it seems like that would have worked once by now. I'd rather not have to wait another 27 years.

[ibanezmonster]

But I don't wanna make this thread about me; I'm just wondering how in the world what I described happens. Anyone with an answer, maybe from personal experience  or knowing others- you're welcome to satisfy my curiosity.

[Mirror Image]

That sounds nice and all, but I'm almost 27, and it seems like that would have worked once by now. I'd rather not have to wait another 27 years.

So you would rather put up some kind of facade and make a woman believe that the person she's talking with is not actually the real you? Sounds kind of fishy man. Greg, if you like a woman, ask her out, if she says 'no,' then move onto another one. It's that simple really. Nothing can happen if you're just going to over-analyze everything that's wrong with women (and the men they choose to be with) or the whole dating thing in general. You sound like you lack a lot of self-esteem and if a woman says yes when you ask her out, don't look at the whole situation as she pities you or that there must be something wrong with her. Just enjoy the date and get to know her and, most importantly, listen to everything she says. You really shouldn't talk all that much.

[Mirror Image]

On top of what I just said above, you seem like a good guy, but there's nothing worse I hate than to see someone so consumed with negative feelings that they can't just accept that they're not going to have everything in common and the whole ideal of finding that 'perfect woman' who is the whole package is ultimately a dead end. A woman can't have everything on your 'checklist.' Once you accept this reality, you'll be able to, hopefully, be in a relationship, but first, you must make the first move and ask a woman that you're attracted to out!

[ibanezmonster]

the whole ideal of finding that 'perfect woman' who is the whole package is ultimately a dead end.

I've accepted this years ago. Any Xenakis fans out there?

So you would rather put up some kind of facade and make a woman believe that the person she's talking with is not actually the real you?

It's more about making a connection by expanding yourself. There's not many that are our type out there... so you'd have better odds expanding interests and possible aspects of personality.

Greg, if you like a woman, ask her out, if she says 'no,' then move onto another one.

I may have to wait a couple years to move on, though, because there is no one to move on to... or try to pick up a girl at the grocery store. Now that's totally me. The real me would engage in small talk about lettuce and pick up someone from the grocery store. 

[Henk]

I may have to wait a couple years to move on, though, because there is no one to move on to... or try to pick up a girl at the grocery store. Now that's totally me. The real me would engage in small talk about lettuce and pick up someone from the grocery store. 

Sounds good, practice it! Maybe don't try to be too cool. 

[ibanezmonster]

"Excuse me, ma'am, is that lettuce you're buying? Oh, how lucky people are nowadays. I remember the days of the lettuce famine when we used to have to hire our own samurai bodyguards to protect the lettuce we would grow in our yards. Now, I didn't have seven samurai to protect me, but only had a measly three samurai; however, when the members of the Lettuce Thief Ninja Guild launched a surprise attack, I quickly gave my samurai some Viagra and they took down the ninjas in the most humiliating way possible. Those were the days... oh yeah, btw, what's your number?"

[Henk]

Very kind actually, Greg.