Top10 compositions that you don't like but everyone else does

[Brian]

There's a certain portentousness in Brahms's "serious" orchestral music that can be annoying.

It's odd - in the piano concertos and first symphony, that portentousness puts me on edge, but in the last three symphonies (and especially the extremely serious Fourth) it doesn't bother me at all anymore. Not sure how to describe the difference.

[Karl Henning]

It's odd - in the piano concertos and first symphony, that portentousness puts me on edge, but in the last three symphonies (and especially the extremely serious Fourth) it doesn't bother me at all anymore. Not sure how to describe the difference.

Perhaps, Brian (and forgive me if I repeat myself), it is the focus and economy of the later works which carries them.

[ritter]

Perhaps, Brian (and forgive me if I repeat myself), it is the focus and economy of the later works which carries them.

Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works. Compared to Brahms's Piano concerto No. 1, Wagner's Ring appears to have the economy of means of Webern's SQ op. 28. 

So there you go: that Brahms Piano concerto No. 1 is a piece that has many admirers, and that I find insufferable  . Seeing it live not long ago with Radu Lupu and the Bambergers conducted by Jonathan Nott only confirmed my aversion to the piece...

[amw]

The "portentousness" of Brahms 1 is partly an issue because it is repeated... jo498 pointed out elsewhere that the first movement presents a complete "darkness to light" trajectory of its own, essentially resolving the basic conflict of the symphony by the time it's over. But then the last movement returns to the portentous introductory mood to play out another darkness to light trajectory, and then he has to keep the movement going for another 12 minutes and therefore makes the main theme of the finale into this extremely important and pompous hymn instead of what it should by all rights be, which is a damn good tune, and builds up to an ending almost as bombastic as the Academic Festival Overture.

If he had ended the first movement in minor, and if the middle movements had been less divertimento like and more "serious", this kind of finale would work much better. The reason Beethoven 5 can have an incredibly bombastic finale ending with 69 hours of c major chords is because the rest of the piece is dark and portentous and this acts as a justified exorcism of the demons. Brahms 1 just keeps going over the trajectory repeatedly and we kind of get it after a while.

I think on its own though, the first movement of Brahms 1 makes a pretty great symphony by itself. Or you could follow it up with the slow movement from Symphony 3 and then end with the finale of the 3rd Piano Quartet arranged for orchestra. Possibilities.

The 4th symphony works, like Beethoven 5, because it's one large dramatic arc. Same with most of Brahms's other mature works (Clarinet Quintet is the most superlative example imo. Also pretty portentous though.)

[amw]

Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works. Compared Brahms's Piano concerto No. 1, Wagner's Ring appears to have the economy of means of Webern's SQ op. 28. 

Also that. Who the heck needs seven separate themes for the first movement of a piano concerto. C'mon man.

[Karl Henning]

Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works.

Well, the Serenades, but they are designedly light (at least, as Brahms understood light) 

[Jo498]

There are only three early orchestral works by Brahms, the two serenades and the first piano concerto. The German Requiem is not really early and I don't think it is unfocussed, it is not a symphony, so it does not need to hang so tightly together.

(I have once read some analysis that distinguished no fewer than 10 thematic ideas in the exposition of Mozart's concerto K 451, so Brahms' is still a few themes short of that...)

[Karl Henning]

The Requiem is not diffuse at all, it is masterly.

[Brian]

Well this has been an especially productive page of the thread! Enjoyed it all, especially:

The "portentousness" of Brahms 1 is partly an issue because it is repeated... jo498 pointed out elsewhere that the first movement presents a complete "darkness to light" trajectory of its own, essentially resolving the basic conflict of the symphony by the time it's over. But then the last movement returns to the portentous introductory mood to play out another darkness to light trajectory, and then he has to keep the movement going for another 12 minutes and therefore makes the main theme of the finale into this extremely important and pompous hymn instead of what it should by all rights be, which is a damn good tune, and builds up to an ending almost as bombastic as the Academic Festival Overture.

If he had ended the first movement in minor, and if the middle movements had been less divertimento like and more "serious", this kind of finale would work much better. The reason Beethoven 5 can have an incredibly bombastic finale ending with 69 hours of c major chords is because the rest of the piece is dark and portentous and this acts as a justified exorcism of the demons. Brahms 1 just keeps going over the trajectory repeatedly and we kind of get it after a while.

I think on its own though, the first movement of Brahms 1 makes a pretty great symphony by itself. Or you could follow it up with the slow movement from Symphony 3 and then end with the finale of the 3rd Piano Quartet arranged for orchestra. Possibilities.

The 4th symphony works, like Beethoven 5, because it's one large dramatic arc. Same with most of Brahms's other mature works (Clarinet Quintet is the most superlative example imo. Also pretty portentous though.)

to which I can only say



I always thought that Brahms' Symphony and Concerto No. 1 were burdened by a need to demonstrate his Super Serious Credentials and Successor of Beethoven Importance, but never quite thought of the Symphony in that way before. The two middle movements make the finale follow unnaturally, too.

Karl is also right about the relative economy of the subsequent works being to their benefit.

Well, the Serenades, but they are designedly light (at least, as Brahms understood light) 

I don't suppose you've heard the reconstructed (since he destroyed it) original version of the first serenade - for just nine chamber players? A good bit of fun, that. Of course, I do love Serenade No. 1 inordinately.

[Jo498]

I like the first serenade (I know of but am not familiar with the nonet reconstruction) but it seems a fairly hodgepodge piece to me. Two movements seem genuine Brahms, namely 2 and 3 (I think they are not only by far the most original but also the best ones). The second scherzo (5) is basically a pastiche from Beethoven's septet and his 2nd symphony, the first movement almost paraphrases the finale of Haydn's last symphony as a first theme and the menuetto also sounds somewhat like a hack from Schubert's octet.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I might add one work.

Études, by Debussy. It's pretty much the only work so far I've heard from him that I don't like.

[Klaze]

Das Lied von der Erde

[mc ukrneal]

Rite of Spring.

There, I said it...

[Karl Henning]

We can still be mates.

[vandermolen]

Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's  'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work

[Karl Henning]

Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's  'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work

It's rum, but although I have heard (and, in one case, conducted) some three or four works which I have been told are "similar to" the Chichester Psalms, I have not yet heard the Bernstein work.  (So that I am no position to observe whether this or that piece is homage, or plagiarism  )  I guess that none of the 'tribute' pieces impressed me enough to seek out the Bernstein original . . . .

[Mister Sharpe]

Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's  'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work

I love both o' 'em.  Cloy away!   

Seek out this recording rather than his other, later one.  That might help:

[asin]B000009CYI[/asin]

[vandermolen]

I love both o' 'em.  Cloy away!   

Seek out this recording rather than his other, later one.  That might help:

[asin]B000009CYI[/asin]

Thank you!
I think that it might be in my Sony box set of Lennie conducts Lennie (original cover series) so I will do.

[vandermolen]

Schubert Quintet

Stravinsky: Les Noces

Bruckner 8

Schubert 9

Shostakovich 7 and 8

Myaskovsky symphonies (all of them except 1, 5, 10, 11 and 13)

Interesting about the Myaskovsky symphonies as, apart from No.5, the ones you like (or don't dislike) are the lesser known ones. Of these No.11 is my favourite. No.10 is the most 'modernist' I think.

[Jo498]

I also have some doubts that "everyone else" (or even a strong and vocal majority) likes Les Noces or most of Miaskovsky's symphonies