Today is a day of National remembrance in the Netherlands.

[Ken B]

The Nuernberg trial, anyone? Stalin trialing Hitler... 

Whatever problems there were with the Nuremburg trials the charge of show trial is unfair. Schacht for instance was one of the defendants in the first trial, and he was acquitted (rightly I think).

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

It's a sad day. I fear justice may be slow in coming, if it comes at all.

It would be hard to get justice anyway in what looks like a horrendous screw-up, along the lines of the US Navy shootdown of the Iranian airliner in 1988, or the Ukrainian shootdown of the Siberian Airlines flight in 2001. Both were, as far as we can tell, accidents.

I can't call myself a fan of Obama, but his cool and detached approach to foreign affairs has its virtues. This is not a time to go into hysterics.

[mc ukrneal]

It would be hard to get justice anyway in what looks like a horrendous screw-up, along the lines of the US Navy shootdown of the Iranian airliner in 1988, or the Ukrainian shootdown of the Siberian Airlines flight in 2001. Both were, as far as we can tell, accidents.

]
None of those governments are on record for gloating with glee when it happened. Neither did they loot the bodies and other stupid stuff. Was it an accident (in that the shooters would not have shot a civilian aircraft if they had known) - probably. But it doesn't make the subsequent events easier to bear.

And let's not forget the Soviet shootdown of Korean Airlines. I think those rebel terrorists (or whatever you want to call them) must have read from that playbook.

[Florestan]

Whatever problems there were with the Nuremburg trials the charge of show trial is unfair.

Come on! Any trial of a Nazi criminal featuring a Soviet prosecutor is a show trial ipso facto..

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

None of those governments are on record for gloating with glee when it happened.

"Gloating with glee"? I would like to see a quote or reference for this.

And let's not forget the Soviet shootdown of Korean Airlines.

That was deliberate - an obvious difference.

[Florestan]

It would be hard to get justice anyway in what looks like a horrendous screw-up, along the lines of the US Navy shootdown of the Iranian airliner in 1988, or the Ukrainian shootdown of the Siberian Airlines flight in 2001. Both were, as far as we can tell, accidents.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!

Have there wisest words ever been uttered?

But then again, Thou shalt not kill.

Oh God, have mercy on us sinners!

[mc ukrneal]

"Gloating with glee"? I would like to see a quote or reference for this.

Just find whatever Strelkov said when the liner first went down (when they claimed they had shot it down). He sure did get out there quick to claim responsibility. Of course, they tried to delete it, which means it is now everywhere.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Just find whatever Strelkov said

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the Russian gov't. Whatever Strelkov is, he's not that.

[mc ukrneal]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the Russian gov't. Whatever Strelkov is, he's not that.

He's not what? Not quite sure what you mean.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

He's not what? Not quite sure what you mean.

Not the Russian government.

[Ken B]

Come on! Any trial of a Nazi criminal featuring a Soviet prosecutor is a show trial ipso facto..

No. Grotesque and ironic perhaps, but the trials were not unfair, the verdicts were not predetermined. von Papen was also acquitted (later convicted on other charges). 3 of 20 were acquitted.  The judges, the western ones, were not flunkies. The Russians were not the only ones involved in those trials, and the westerners who were were serious honorable people trying to do a serious honorable thing. I do not believe they succeeded but I won't deny they tried.

[pjme]

http://www.youtube.com/v/hQTMrs0DMsI

In Memoriam....

Peter

[Harry]

http://www.youtube.com/v/hQTMrs0DMsI

In Memoriam....

Peter

Thank you!

[Florestan]

No. Grotesque and ironic perhaps, but the trials were not unfair, the verdicts were not predetermined. von Papen was also acquitted (later convicted on other charges). 3 of 20 were acquitted.  The judges, the western ones, were not flunkies. The Russians were not the only ones involved in those trials, and the westerners who were were serious honorable people trying to do a serious honorable thing. I do not believe they succeeded but I won't deny they tried.

If you say so...

[Marc]

Went to the organ concert this evening by Erwin Wiersinga, called 'Ostinato', in the Groningen Martinikerk. One minute of silence before the event began. Then the anonymous composition (16th century) Upon La Mi Re began to float around the church. Church bells began to rang in memory of the crash victims during Buxtehude's D moll Passacaglia, creating an atmosphere of breathlessness. At the end, Litanie of Jan Welmers, inspired by Skrik of Edvard Munch.

A perfect concert for reflection, well suited for the day.

Here's a transcription of Upon La Mi Re:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9q4vWS8DTUE

[Harry]

Today another 74 coffins were flown in from Charkov, to Eindhoven. They were treated with the same military honour as the first victims. They expect that at least until Saturday both planes from the Dutch and Australian Air Force will be carrying remains of flight MH 17.
The Netherlands has now officially the lead in all investigations.

[North Star]

This is a tragic matter indeed. I hope the matter will be thoroughly investigated, but there is little hope for getting Putin or perhaps even the rebels into a trial.

No. Grotesque and ironic perhaps, but the trials were not unfair, the verdicts were not predetermined. von Papen was also acquitted (later convicted on other charges). 3 of 20 were acquitted.  The judges, the western ones, were not flunkies. The Russians were not the only ones involved in those trials, and the westerners who were were serious honorable people trying to do a serious honorable thing. I do not believe they succeeded but I won't deny they tried.

The trial in Nürnberg wasn't (or shouldn't have been) only about convicting the Germans.. And the war-responsibility trials in Finland were grotesque, and although conducted in Finland, they were controlled by Soviet Union, and used unconstitutional ex post facto laws.

One of the charges, brought against Keitel, Jodl, and Ribbentrop included conspiracy to commit aggression against Poland in 1939. The Secret Protocols of the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939, proposed the partition of Poland between the Germans and the Soviets (which was subsequently executed in September 1939); however, Soviet leaders were not tried for being part of the same conspiracy.[76] Instead, the Tribunal proclaimed the Secret Protocols of the Non-Aggression Pact to be a forgery. Moreover, Allied Powers Britain and Soviet Union were not tried for preparing and conducting the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran and the Winter War, respectively.

[bwv 1080]

thought this was a poignant picture

[Harry]

thought this was a poignant picture

Yes, that was very impressive, 74 coffins. Thank you for posting that!
Today at 16:00 hours another flight will come in, and the same procedure will start again, until all victims are back again.

[AnthonyAthletic]

thought this was a poignant picture

Respectfully Beautiful.

Your heart goes out to all the families and friends who lost their loved ones.