Well-known music you've somehow overlooked (or never got round to hearing)

[Henk]

You haven't made the case;  you've specified your assertion.  Tell us why — musically, why.  Reasons which stand a chance of rebutting (for anyone who does not simply like listening to Donatani) the obvious, musical arguments which any of us can raise in Bach's, Mozart's or Beethoven's defense.

(And, lawd, Henk:  you can't be serious  )

? I don't understand, I said it's a personal judgement.. But if you want a musical argument: simply look at the score!!

[Henk]

REPOST:

No, you're wrong.  There are musical reasons why the Sinfonia eroica is a masterpiece, and why Für Elise is not 

Ok, you're right. Turn the score on it's head, have a look at it, and you know (as Mulisch said in the case of literature, but it also applies to scores I think).

But, there are at least five factors into play: historical reasons, mass judgement, authority judgment, chance and musical reasons.

[EigenUser]

I still know just two of Janáček's operas well (Vixen & From the House of the Dead), and have heard Makropulos Case, Kata and Jenufa only once. I haven't heard Shostakovich's operas at all, and am not much better acquainted with the songs. I haven't yet heard any Mozart's operas completely, apart from Le Nozze, or Britten's Death in Venice, Billy Budd, Handel's operas / sacred works (apart from hearing Messiah once, I think), Schönberg's string quartets apart from No. 2, some late Stravinsky (Requiem Canticles, Mass), Boris Godunov, Tchaikovsky's operas, Strauss operas apart from one, no complete Verdi opera yet (although I have heard the SQ live). Fauré's music, apart from the violin sonatas, Requiem, and the Nocturnes. Most of Monteverdi's madrigals, all the operas, etc etc etc. But I'm probably missing some more obvious ones, like most of Haydn's symphonies, or the late masses.
Have you heard L'enfant & les sortileges?
(btw, I think you should have put some of those shocked smileys next to that Beethoven line, too..)

I haven't yet heard L'enfant et les Sortileges in full, but I've heard parts and I know the plot. I'll get to it.

You haven't heard Faure's Pelleas et Melisande or the Pavane? I mean, coming from me that wouldn't be so shocking at all, but from you...

Comparing Donatoni to Beethoven is like comparing apples to Wednesday.

[springrite]

Comparing Donatoni to Beethoven is like comparing apples to Wednesday.

Everyone knows apples are weekend fruits.

[Karl Henning]

? I don't understand, I said it's a personal judgement.. But if you want a musical argument: simply look at the score!!

I am sorry (but perhaps not surprised) that you are withdrawing from the challenge of making the case.

"I like Donatoni, so in my opinion he's just as great as Bach" is not a remark to take at all seriously.  I should have thought you know this.

[Sergeant Rock]

Verdi Simon Boccanegra...other than that, I've heard everything 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Thread Duty:

I've managed quite successfully, though without realizing it for most of the time, to avoid Donatoni 

[Jo498]

My 25th birthday is in a week and a half. I've never heard:

When I was 25 I had listened to classical for about 10 years. So you are young and have a lot of time to explore the music.
I had heard Bach's St Matthew Passion, Mass in B minor and maybe a handful or two of cantatas [I still have not heard all of them 17 years later and do not know more than maybe two dozen reasonably well]
I was slowly getting to know Bach's keyboard works, but it took another two years or so until I became a fan. [I still only know the most famous organ works, but have most of them on my shelves)
Of Handel I had heard Water Music, Fireworks Music and probably a bunch of concertos and Messiah. Slowly I got into more (I think Israel in Egypt was one of my next buys around that time, but my real "Handel phase" didn't start until about 5-6 years later.)
Beethoven's Missa solemnis and string quartets Opp. 131-132 etc. I knew already quite well, also "Death and the Maiden" and the other two famous Schubert quartets and quintet.
I knew the two big Schubert lieder cycles, also Schumann's Dichterliebe and maybe op.39. Maybe one disc each of Brahms or Wolf lieder [and while I might have more of the latter on my shelves now, this is also somewhat of a blind spot]
I had heard Mahler's Sixth and Ninth (and 1-5), but probably not 7, 8 and 10. Also the Bartok quartets, but I wouldn't claim to know them well even now.
Of Shostakovich I had probably heard the Symphonies 5, 8-10, maybe 13 and a handful of quartets.

Great music ahead for you! Unless you dislike choral/church music you should really give those big Bach pieces, as well as Messiah and Beethoven's missa solemnis a try. And of course the late quartets of Beethoven and Schubert. This is among the most incredible and moving stuff ever.

[springrite]

Verdi Simon Boccanegra...other than that, I've heard everything 

Sarge

OK, I admit I have not listened to Edgar!

[Henk]

I am sorry (but perhaps not surprised) that you are withdrawing from the challenge of making the case.

"I like Donatoni, so in my opinion he's just as great as Bach" is not a remark to take at all seriously.  I should have thought you know this.

Ok, sorry I understand now and I agree. But looking at the score is, in a way, seriously, a good way to get an impression of the musical quality.

I understand now about "making the case". Sorry, my english is bad.

[Henk]

Making the case, Karl:

Donatoni:

- Balance between silent and loud, slow and fast passages, always being adventurous
- Never repeating himself, in a particular composition as well as among compositions.
- His compositions show development
- Unique way of composing, truely authentic, not even a trace of influence of other composers can be heared
- Subtleness absolutely taken to the highest level
- Wonderfully orchestration, seldomly experienced.
- A totally new form of harmony compared to pre-WWII. Unique. 
- An inspiration for other composers

[North Star]

I haven't yet heard L'enfant et les Sortileges in full, but I've heard parts and I know the plot. I'll get to it.

You haven't heard Faure's Pelleas et Melisande or the Pavane? I mean, coming from me that wouldn't be so shocking at all, but from you...

Pavane & some other Faure I know, but there is much I haven't yet managed to hear, even though I've been meaning to, for a long time.

[Henk]

Thread Duty:

I've managed quite successfully, though without realizing it for most of the time, to avoid Donatoni 

I can recommend him heartly, Karl. If you haven't tried, you can't say anthing about his work.

[Karl Henning]

Donatoni:

- Balance between silent and loud, slow and fast passages, always being adventurous
- Never repeating himself, in a particular composition as well as among compositions.
- His compositions show development
- Unique way of composing, truely authentic, not even an influence of other composers can be heared
- Subtleness absolutely taken to the highest level
- Wonderfully orchestration, seldomly experienced.
- A totally new form of harmony compared to pre-WWII. Unique. 

I appreciate your effort!  Now, I have some preliminary remarks (only preliminary, because I have not listened to the music, myself):

Balance between silent and loud, slow and fast passages, always being adventurous

Myriad composers, good, bad and indifferent, manage a balance between silent (soft) and loud, between fast and slow.  These points, in themselves, do not tell me anything about whether the music is great.

As to adventurous, this is rather subjective and contextual.  This is still reading more like "I dig this composer!" than like "Here is why this composer is as great as Bach."

Never repeating himself, in a particular composition as well as among compositions.

Repetition can be artful (is, in fact, one of the things which create coherence in music).  The avoidance of repetition can be artful . . . or it can be a tic.  Here again, the point itself does not mean one thing or the other, and needs more discussion.

His compositions show development.

All composers breathe, too   Seriously, something of a de minimus point, and not anything to shake Bach from his (well-earned) pedestal.

Unique way of composing, truly authentic, not even an influence of other composers can be heard

Appeal to The Anxienty of Influence is soooo 20^th century!   Many a great artist wears his influences well.  Another point which I consider ambiguous.

- Subtleness absolutely taken to the highest level
- Wonderfully orchestration, seldomly experienced.
- A totally new form of harmony compared to pre-WWII. Unique.

Well, that last one can hardly be a point of comparison to Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, right? 

In a sense, no 20^th-c. composer can be "as great as" Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, each of whom had a far-reaching impact on later generations of composers.  It is simply a river we cannot step into again.

So I think you over-reached with that bit of hyperbole (perhaps that sentence is redundant).  And something I have to share about myself is:  I tend to resist hype, and my hype-o-meter is a finely tuned instrument.

[North Star]

In a sense, no 20^th-c. composer can be "as great as" Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, each of whom had a far-reaching impact on later generations of composers.  It is simply a river we cannot step into again.

How can an 18th-century composer be as great as Monteverdi, Josquin, Machaut, or Ockeghem? 

[Karl Henning]

They're all pretenders! Bow to Leonin!

[North Star]

They're all pretenders! Bow to Leonin!

Pfft, Kassia is the one true master. 

[Jay F]

Well some music leaves my quite cold, I don't have the urge to listen to all those masterpieces. It's not a quest.

The works of Brahms, Berlioz, Wagner, Liszt, Schumann. I have listened to some, but it's just music I don't like, so I'm not going to listen to it because I need to listen to all "masterpieces".

I've listened to just enough of all of these to know I don't want to listen to any more. I could give away my Brahms CDs and I wouldn't miss them. I've already given away most of the relatively few CDs I have by all the others (I have a set of Hungarian Rhapsodies I enjoy, on Capriccio).

[71 dB]

I have been listening to classical music for almost 2 decades and avoiding most of it. 

[Jay F]

I have been listening to classical music for almost 2 decades and avoiding most of it. 

I have probably avoided most of it, too, after 28 years. Well, not avoided, exactly...