Takemitsu: Sounds as intense as silence

[timh1]

There is a Phd thesis which includes an analysis of Takemitsu "How Slow the Wind". Starts on page 186.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/2636/1/Mark's_PhD_final.pdf

[snyprrr]

There is a Phd thesis which includes an analysis of Takemitsu "How Slow the Wind". Starts on page 186.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/2636/1/Mark's_PhD_final.pdf

I've got a cold, I can't read!! I tried, wow.

[snyprrr]

Tree Line

This is the third TT piece I've been rotating, and I might be liking the most at the moment. It's at least as good as 'How Slow the Wind', doesn't "sound just like Messiaen", and has a very arboreal, dark cast, with, I think, a koto making nicely pungent pricks here and there. TT's effect of Tone Painting is very strong here. There are some nicely bent notes- TT does have Feldman from the late 70s, but, not quickly- one thing after another, but slower?- and yes, the Cinematic flair is ever there.

Far Call. Coming, Far! (1980) Violin Concerto (No.1)

This is one of the first works in TT's new 80s sound that we know so well. I found this to be the least interesting of what I've heard hear now. That said, the violin line is great without being Hollywood. The orchestra didn't seem as interesting (well, usually in concertos, not). I do want to come back to it.- In a way it reminds me of the blandness of the string quartet on that RCA disc. It has a very "calligraphy" phrasing... it's late, I'm rambling...


Vers, l'arc-en-ciel, Palma (1984) Concerto (No.2) for guitar and oboe d'amore

Just to speed up the process a bit, I played this during a nap. This is the 2nd work written for John Williams, and the two are supposed to make a pair. So, for some reason, this one sounded more Middle Eastern to me, maybe because of the oboe- of course, there is nothing overt, - it must just be the oboe and guitar combination gives an al fresco relief from the very plush and silk road orchestra. Maybe it doesn't sound so much different, I'll have to check again later. For some reason it made me think of the Rush song, 'Passage to Bangkok'!




SO FAR:

'How Slow the Wind'- as a stand alone, a great piece
'Quotation of Dream'- "sounds like Messiaen"- but I like it
'Tree Line'- very evocative tone painting
'Vers...'- slightly standard TT, but with a certain extra plushness
Far Calls. Coming, Far!- standard, bland, calligraphy violin phrases


Next will be 'Dream/Window' (1983). I noticed here an obsessive repeating of a motif...

[snyprrr]

Tree Line

This is the third TT piece I've been rotating, and I might be liking the most at the moment. It's at least as good as 'How Slow the Wind', doesn't "sound just like Messiaen", and has a very arboreal, dark cast, with, I think, a koto making nicely pungent pricks here and there. TT's effect of Tone Painting is very strong here. There are some nicely bent notes- TT does have Feldman from the late 70s, but, not quickly- one thing after another, but slower?- and yes, the Cinematic flair is ever there.

Far Call. Coming, Far! (1980) Violin Concerto (No.1)

This is one of the first works in TT's new 80s sound that we know so well. I found this to be the least interesting of what I've heard hear now. That said, the violin line is great without being Hollywood. The orchestra didn't seem as interesting (well, usually in concertos, not). I do want to come back to it.- In a way it reminds me of the blandness of the string quartet on that RCA disc. It has a very "calligraphy" phrasing... it's late, I'm rambling...


Vers, l'arc-en-ciel, Palma (1984) Concerto (No.2) for guitar and oboe d'amore

Just to speed up the process a bit, I played this during a nap. This is the 2nd work written for John Williams, and the two are supposed to make a pair. So, for some reason, this one sounded more Middle Eastern to me, maybe because of the oboe- of course, there is nothing overt, - it must just be the oboe and guitar combination gives an al fresco relief from the very plush and silk road orchestra. Maybe it doesn't sound so much different, I'll have to check again later. For some reason it made me think of the Rush song, 'Passage to Bangkok'!




SO FAR:

'How Slow the Wind'- as a stand alone, a great piece
'Quotation of Dream'- "sounds like Messiaen"- but I like it
'Tree Line'- very evocative tone painting
'Vers...'- slightly standard TT, but with a certain extra plushness
Far Calls. Coming, Far!- standard, bland, calligraphy violin phrases


Next will be 'Dream/Window' (1983). I noticed here an obsessive repeating of a motif...

Dream/Window
Spirit Garden
Twill by Twilight
Dreamtime

These three works work the stereotypical TT formula all the way down. I found precious little to differentiate them.  I can't really report anything here yet. mmmm


Nostalghia Violin Concerto (No.2)

On the other hand, 'Nostalghia, dedicated to Tarkovsky, is one of TT's most memorable plunges in the pool. It has all the right moves and sounds ravishingly in repose. I have the ABC/Iwaki recording, which clocks in at 11 minutes. Bashmet(?) clocks in at 16, and that is just too long. In general, Iwaki's recital plays TT without a lot of EXTRA syrup (since the music itself is quite sugery to begin with), so I am recommending it above others (along with the DG/Knussen disc).

'Nostalghia' seems to be the ubiquitous TT piece at the moment, but watch out for those 14 minute versions. The 11 minute one has great repose, so, stretching it out is quite unnecessary.




btw- in direct comparisons, the DG/Knussen disc outdoes any rivals. This recital is very special and should probably be one's first encounter with TT. Knussen's other recital, on Virgin, is also top-notch.




I find a lot in common with late Xenakis in TT- these single movement pieces that sound similar...

[Mirror Image]

Nostalghia is certainly a fine work, snyprrr, but, unlike you, I don't mind the longer versions of it. My favorite performance is the Daniel Hope recording on Nimbus (w/ Boughton and the English Symphony Orchestra).

[snyprrr]

Nostalghia is certainly a fine work, snyprrr, but, unlike you, I don't mind the longer versions of it. My favorite performance is the Daniel Hope recording on Nimbus (w/ Boughton and the English Symphony Orchestra).

That's the one I'd be looking into.

Any other TT you like? Knussen's discs (DG, Virgin) seem to be the best so far, absolutely pristine presentations with all the best pieces. The V
irgin, particularly, has the 'misterioso factor' set to 10 throughout.

[Mahlerian]

That's the one I'd be looking into.

Any other TT you like? Knussen's discs (DG, Virgin) seem to be the best so far, absolutely pristine presentations with all the best pieces. The V
irgin, particularly, has the 'misterioso factor' set to 10 throughout.

My recommendation, based on what you already have:


The only fault I have with this disc is the inclusion of both versions of Eucalypts right next to each other, one being the exact same but with just the soloists.

[violadude]

I don't have too much experience with Takemitsu. What I have in my collection is a random hodgepodge of various orchestral and chamber works from these three CDs


https://www.amazon.com/Takemitsu-Pacific-Symphony-Orchestra-Clair/dp/B00138F6LQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1477470869&sr=1-2&keywords=Takemitsu
https://www.amazon.com/Takemitsu-Boston-Symphony-Orchestra-Seiji/dp/B000V6Q980/ref=sr_1_25?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1477471635&sr=1-25&keywords=Takemitsu
https://www.amazon.com/Takemitsu-Quotation-Signals-Twilight-Archipelago/dp/B000V6MQTQ/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1477470941&sr=1-13&keywords=Takemitsu


The sheer aural beauty that Takemitsu creates with each work is just magical. The sensitivity to subtle changes in harmony or timbre is especially rewarding to perceptive listeners. The orchestral pieces I've listened to by this composer always have an air of other-worldliness to me, maybe like one is peeking directly into a dream (one of his pieces IS called Quotation of a Dream, after all). I also very much enjoy the slow pace at which these pieces reveal themselves.

I haven't paid as much attention to the chamber works as I have the orchestral works. From what I've heard they seem to take much inspiration from Boulez's Marteau Sans Maitre, not surprising considering the latter's far-reaching influence at the time Takemitsu was writing. I look forward to exploring them and other Takemitsu pieces more.

I think my favorite piece of his at the moment is A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden or Quatrain.

[Mirror Image]

That's the one I'd be looking into.

Any other TT you like? Knussen's discs (DG, Virgin) seem to be the best so far, absolutely pristine presentations with all the best pieces. The V
irgin, particularly, has the 'misterioso factor' set to 10 throughout.

A few of my favorite Takemitsu recordings:

(A bit hard to see but this is the soundtrack to the film Ran) -


The redundancy in this recording can easily be overlooked as the music is just so gorgeous -

[snyprrr]

A few of my favorite Takemitsu recordings:

(A bit hard to see but this is the soundtrack to the film Ran) -


The redundancy in this recording can easily be overlooked as the music is just so gorgeous -

I found 'I Hear the Water Dreaming'  somewhat weak (and the redundancy here does get on my nerves- why not have 'Then I Knew 'Twas Wind'??... anyhow) ... I haven't been taken so much with his Concertos; it seems he has reserved his most lush and faux-Hollywood for them... I was also a bit underwhelmed by the main guitar concerto.

That said, 'Gemeaux', a concerto for oboe and trombone (1971-1986) on the Denon disc, is maybe the single greatest piece I've heard by him. It has both his "bracing" style and his "lush" style, to great effect. There are some Xenakis type moments here as well. It is one of his longer pieces- MI??- you might like it...

I still have 'riverrun' (piano concerto) and 'From Me Flows..." (percussion concerto) to go...




As far as those other DG discs with the older chamber material- well, one could almost reserve them for a different Composer! I have made a hard break with TT at around 1976, leaving all the earlier stuff for another go round. (otherwise I actually might just be buyBuyBUYing more than I can handle this month)...


I've had all these TT discs for like decades and I didn't even know there was something beyond the remembered lush Mdessiaen-isms. And, I hear so much Messiaen, Xenakis, and

mmm...


Of course, much of his output is Film Music and such, so, the hint of Hollywood is by all rights there- his "Classical" output is actually kind of small and manageable- I have almost all his stuff after 'A Flock Descends...' and didn't even know it.


Oh,- I was also quite unimpressed with the clarinet concerto 'Fantasma/Cantos' (Stoltzman/RCA), which reminded me of "soft" LateXenakis,... again with the concertos... I mean, maybe it's not the thing to be "impressed"- they just ARE... but, I do still feel like there are some longeurs in TT, just like in Messiaen, but, hey, when you're dealing with Eternity, I guess there will be some of that.


So, we'll finish up with 'riverrun' and 'From Me...' today. I'm so glad I got a research project done without spending monies, yaaay!! See, you CAN have too music around, as long as you listen to it eventually (and take a break from the constant buuuuying).


Again, the Virgin disc is my fav right now, followed by 'Quotation'.

I think my favorite piece of his at the moment is A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden or Quatrain.

They fall right at the end of his "bracing" style, right before he converted to lushness. 'A Flock...' is certainly one of those classic 70s avant pieces. I will warn anyone against the Alsop/Naxos version, which, from my brief listen, seems to suck all the "bracing" out. 14.5 minutes versus a more normal 11 minutes.......



Takemitsu, - pretty cool, man!!

[Mirror Image]

I found 'I Hear the Water Dreaming'  somewhat weak (and the redundancy here does get on my nerves- why not have 'Then I Knew 'Twas Wind'??... anyhow) ... I haven't been taken so much with his Concertos; it seems he has reserved his most lush and faux-Hollywood for them... I was also a bit underwhelmed by the main guitar concerto.

That said, 'Gemeaux', a concerto for oboe and trombone (1971-1986) on the Denon disc, is maybe the single greatest piece I've heard by him. It has both his "bracing" style and his "lush" style, to great effect. There are some Xenakis type moments here as well. It is one of his longer pieces- MI??- you might like it...

I still have 'riverrun' (piano concerto) and 'From Me Flows..." (percussion concerto) to go...




As far as those other DG discs with the older chamber material- well, one could almost reserve them for a different Composer! I have made a hard break with TT at around 1976, leaving all the earlier stuff for another go round. (otherwise I actually might just be buyBuyBUYing more than I can handle this month)...


I've had all these TT discs for like decades and I didn't even know there was something beyond the remembered lush Mdessiaen-isms. And, I hear so much Messiaen, Xenakis, and

mmm...


Of course, much of his output is Film Music and such, so, the hint of Hollywood is by all rights there- his "Classical" output is actually kind of small and manageable- I have almost all his stuff after 'A Flock Descends...' and didn't even know it.


Oh,- I was also quite unimpressed with the clarinet concerto 'Fantasma/Cantos' (Stoltzman/RCA), which reminded me of "soft" LateXenakis,... again with the concertos... I mean, maybe it's not the thing to be "impressed"- they just ARE... but, I do still feel like there are some longeurs in TT, just like in Messiaen, but, hey, when you're dealing with Eternity, I guess there will be some of that.


So, we'll finish up with 'riverrun' and 'From Me...' today. I'm so glad I got a research project done without spending monies, yaaay!! See, you CAN have too music around, as long as you listen to it eventually (and take a break from the constant buuuuying).


Again, the Virgin disc is my fav right now, followed by 'Quotation'.

They fall right at the end of his "bracing" style, right before he converted to lushness. 'A Flock...' is certainly one of those classic 70s avant pieces. I will warn anyone against the Alsop/Naxos version, which, from my brief listen, seems to suck all the "bracing" out. 14.5 minutes versus a more normal 11 minutes.......



Takemitsu, - pretty cool, man!!

Gemeaux is a pretty good work, but not one of my favorites and I heartily disagree with you about your opinions regarding I Hear The Water Dreaming. Nothing weak at all about this work as the ebb and flow of the work is enough to carry one away to another place and time. I generally like most of Takemitsu's concerti with my favorite being A String Around Autumn.

[snyprrr]

I didn't even know I had 'Rain Tree Sketch I + II' and the 'Les Yeux Clos II' by Serkin. Wow, the former were some of my fav TT right off the bat- he certainly turned any forces into an Orchestral Work. I hear the Satie.

There's a lot of different recitals, any favs? Obviously, recording quality is at a premium in these works, along with a very specific touch. Curious about the BIS, Philips, and others...

[Mahlerian]

I don't really hear Takemitsu's music before the mid-70s and Takemitsu's music after the mid-70s to be particularly different at all.  Sure the edges were softened a bit, but the musical personality is really the same underneath.

Also, he really didn't have all that much contact with Hollywood (only scored one Hollywood film in his entire career), and his film music is of a distinct character from his concert works.  I think it would be difficult if not impossible to find a Hollywood film score that sounds like Takemitsu's concert music in more than a few surface elements, just as resemblances between film scores and late romantic symphonies are primarily about the surface rather than the content.

[snyprrr]

I generally like most of Takemitsu's concerti with my favorite being A String Around Autumn.

thaaat's what I was fishing for, I agree

I don't really hear Takemitsu's music before the mid-70s and Takemitsu's music after the mid-70s to be particularly different at all.  Sure the edges were softened a bit, but the musical personality is really the same underneath.

Also, he really didn't have all that much contact with Hollywood (only scored one Hollywood film in his entire career), and his film music is of a distinct character from his concert works.  I think it would be difficult if not impossible to find a Hollywood film score that sounds like Takemitsu's concert music in more than a few surface elements, just as resemblances between film scores and late romantic symphonies are primarily about the surface rather than the content.

I knew my "Hollywood" wouldn't go unchecked. I meant to say what you said...

(Karl, see how reasonable I am?)

[snyprrr]

Fantasma/Cantos (1991) Clarinet Concerto
Far Calls. Coming, Far! (1981) Violin Concerto (No.1)

I am wrapping up my TT Fest by going over some of the items I had a problem with (the problem being I found them uninteresting). One comes from the beginning of the "Sea of Tonality" phase, and one from a decade on.

Maybe it's the RCA recording of the clarinet work that makes it sound so "black" to me (maybe the color of the CD inserts has done this to me?). I do hear a lot of very subtle things going on, but it sounds like there is just the slightest hint of a mid-range recording that has no upper brilliance to it, which seems to be needed for this music. In a way, the work reminds me of the trudging quality of Late Xenakis, almost amorphous. Towards the end, @14mins., I heard just the briefest snippet of a "beautiful melody" that just comes and goes; the rest is - I don't know how to describe TT's  elusive melodic writing here, it reminds me of Goeyvaarts and Stockhausen type '80s melodies. The Goeyvaarts String Quartets have the same fragmented melody, the melodies themselves being somewhat "non human" in the hummability, as if they are from an alien culture (though, not shocking- more "boring" and nondescript, random...). I do like TT's take a bit more than the gray-European style.

TT's violin concerto, coming ten years earlier, does seem a little clearer. It clearly sounds like calligraphy writing from the violin, over washes of (pretty limited) orchestral colour. On the Knussen/DG disc, there are a lot more fun sounds in TT's orchestrations (such as "How Slow the Wind' and 'Archipeligo S.'). Here we seem to be limited to strings and winds.


I seem to have this weakness with pieces that don't grab me right away. I do try hard to get to what it is I don't like, and most of the time I come around, as is the case here. Sometimes I just prefer to play music I'm not that crazy about, and TT does compel me even when I'm not particularly interested.

[snyprrr]

Chamber Music 1975-1995

Just quickly,everything on those DG discs comes from before 1975, with the last piece being the brass work 'Garden Rain' (the title of one of the discs). Then he writes the 'Folios' for guitar, and then the song arrangements, and the Satie arrangement.

When he resumes with Chamber Music, he writes three pieces with a very new openness in his work, the 'Sea of Tonality': Bryce (1976), Waves (1976), and Waterways (1977-78). Here, we still have some of the rigidness of the earlier TT, but with the supple water themes paving a more naturalistic path. And the instrumentation of each piece is very unique, and,... dare I say it, "70s".

There is also the 'QFTEOT' Quartet (Messiaen reference) 'Quatrain II' (1977), which, to me, inhabits more the earlier TT idiom.


"The New Style Begins"

Then we have the first true work of his new style for Chamber Music, the String Quartet A Way A Lone (1980; also for String Orchestra). Here, the "calligraphy" style is obvious: there are ever melodic contours, but, so very hard to make "human, hummable " sense of them- they do seem more like brush strokes.

This piece brings up an issue I have with TT's works with strings, like this: I hear such precious little interest- is it the Tokyo SQ recording, or the music? There is no instrumental variety in the string tone, a la Feldman. The phrases are such that the whole piece begins to sound amorphous. And... then it ends. Thankfully, at @11mins., TT's exercise in "oblivion" is much more palatable than some of his colleagues' longer works in the same, "80s" vein.

'Entre-Temps' (1983), for oboe and SQ, seems very blandly Feldmanesque. I was not particularly moved. As far as the String Quartet goes, there are two late arrangements, but that's it here, except for the EXCELLENT Rocking Mirror Daybreak (1983) for 2 Violins, which sounds exactly like you wish TT sounded like from your first listen.


Continuing with the strings, we have pieces for a three strings, with piano:

From Far beyond Chrysanthemums and November Fog (1983) for vln/pf
Orion (1984) for vnc/pf
A Bird Came down the Walk (1994) for vla/pf

I really enjoyed the first two, the latter only 5mins. They exhibited the "good" old TT sound, fully mature, quicksilver in the former, cosmic gliss and boreales in the second. The viola piece sounded extremely typical of the 'Sea of Tonality' TT, like the SQ.

So, basically, I seem to hold the two violin based pieces in the highest esteem, with the cello work. Had the viola work been written in the 80s, maybe it too work be of the same caliber.

(whoops- forgot:)

Between Tides (1993) Piano Trio*****

I think I heard the ASV recording on YT, and, though I heard some interesting things in the music, I wasn't happy with the sound. Is there a version out there you like- or, is the piece so so in terms of TT?


PIAMO MUSIC

I was surprised that, for the main part, his Piano Music here is limited to the two 'Rain Tree Sketches' and the two 'Les Yeux Clos' pieces, all of which I found to be very high quality, perhaps styled after Satie?

I haven't yet heard the 'Litany', which is simply a n arrangement of a 50s piece, or the Beatles' arrangement of 'Golden Slumbers'.

And I don't think there's a recording of Rain Dreaming (1986)for harpsichord. If anyone could point me in that direction, I thank you now.


GUITAR MUSIC

For some reason, this seems to have become his main muse towards the end. I have always been quite lukewarm towards all his later guitar music, but I've only heard the Williams disc, and 'All in Twilight' (sure, it's nice).

The Last Waltz
A Boy Named Hiroshima (2 guitars)
Towards the Sea (flute/gtr)
All in Twilight
A Piece for Guitar
Equinox
In the Woods

What's your opinion here, any Masterpieces?


THE REST


flute:

Itinerant
Air


trumpet

Paths (in memory of Lutoslawski)




Rain Tree (3 percussionists)
Rain Spell (five players)
Cross Hatch (2 keyboards)

I think the first two are high high points- love those two. Haven't heard the third




And Then I Knew 'Twas Wind (1993) fl/vla/hrp

the Debussy sequel.... what's not to like?





AND THAT'S IT, FOLKS- what stands out for you? For me, it's:

Waterways
Rain Tree
Rain Spell
And Then I Knew 'Twas Wind
From Far beyond...
Rocking Mirror Daybreak
Orion

All in Twilight
Towards the Sea
??



The main work I don't care for is the String Quartet proper.


DONE.
FINITO.
KAPUT.

[Mahlerian]

My recording of Rain Dreaming comes from a set of Takemitsu's complete chamber works that's now, unfortunately, out of print.

[snyprrr]

Classical Guitar tones are like wallpaper to me,- it almost doesn't much matter what it is. I'm not so sure CG has worked so well for the Ultra Avant Guarde, but, it seems most Composers have written some fairly good and normal sounding modernistic works.

Takemitsu has a little hidden wealth of writing, and it's quite individual and evocative. I'm just going from memory here, so, I may miss something.

I'm listening to the 'Folios' right now- and I'm going to skip the '12 Songs' (SONY/Williams). 'Folios' sound fairly typical of mid-modernist, mid-level guitar, nothing offensive, nicely presented. Both of these works were written during a time of transition from his more angular spikiness to the more lush sonorities of his 80s'90s work.

Towards the Sea (Guitar and flute)

Again, I'd rather hear this on an all-guitar/flute recital than a TT recital, but, yea, it's nice enough- I just don't want to hear it NOW, lol...

All in Twilight

Famously written for Bream, these are nice "modern guitar pieces" that work great on recitals featuring Britten, Walton, Lutoslawski, Brouwer,... whatever... nothing earth shattering imo

Bad Boy (2 guitars)
A Boy Named Hiroshima (2 guitars)

The former is from the early 60s, and comes from a soundtrack, I believe. Nice, nothing particular... however, the latter I found to be instantly lovable, a spooky, almost Oldfield/exorcist type of nice minor key picking. THIS was my instant fav.

Equinox (1993?)
In the Woods (1995?)

The former has a lot going for it in terms of Total Artistry- it may be his most probing piece for the guitar- perhaps Ferneyhough at 1/16th speed?- I'd like to see it on more 'various' recitals.

The latter has a lot of the same great guitar writing (he probably would have continued to become better and better at writing for it), but in a more pastoral (though not tonic) mode.


Of course there are tons of live YT vids of all these works........



Maybe it's he wants you to be reminded of Django R. It's all very Frenchy Impresssn Jazzy...*********

[nodogen]

I'm in the Takemitsu Tea House. My sole CD, A Flock Descends (Naxos) is living in my player whilst I await the delivery of more...

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I'm in the Takemitsu Tea House. My sole CD, A Flock Descends (Naxos) is living in my player whilst I await the delivery of more...

This is good make sure to get his guitar music too!