Forum standards for naming pieces?

Started by Linus, September 13, 2014, 06:07:58 PM

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Linus

I was wondering whether there are any standards used on this forum regarding references to individual musical pieces? And if not, what would veteran members recommend? (Sorry if this has been asked before; I could not, however, find anything on this topic when searching the forum.)

What to do with opus numbers, movement numbers, movement names etc.?

Is it e.g. recommended to write (for the same piece):

"I listened to Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 15, Andante"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's Op. 28, 2nd movement"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's 'Pastorale' sonata"?

springrite

Quote from: Linus on September 13, 2014, 06:07:58 PM
I was wondering whether there are any standards used on this forum regarding references to individual musical pieces? And if not, what would veteran members recommend? (Sorry if this has been asked before; I could not, however, find anything on this topic when searching the forum.)

What to do with opus numbers, movement numbers, movement names etc.?

Is it e.g. recommended to write (for the same piece):

"I listened to Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 15, Andante"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's Op. 28, 2nd movement"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's 'Pastorale' sonata"?

All are perfectly acceptable. We have some very knowledgeable members but most are not that snobbish.  ;)
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Linus

Quote from: springrite on September 13, 2014, 06:16:02 PM
All are perfectly acceptable. We have some very knowledgeable members but most are not that snobbish.  ;)

Sounds good. ;D

springrite

Some like to list them in Russian without English translation, though! (But you can usually figure it out, especially when a CD cover is provided)
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Linus

Quote from: springrite on September 13, 2014, 06:21:22 PM
Some like to list them in Russian without English translation, though! (But you can usually figure it out, especially when a CD cover is provided)

Holy moley. ???

My Russian is a bit, ahem, rusty... Thank goodness for CD covers!

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

springrite

Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Jo498

#8
Just do not call sonata movements "song" or "track"  :D

For some reason the opus numbers of Beethoven sonatas (and the K numbers of Mozart' piano concertos and chamber music, but NOT the symphonies) are present in my mind whereas I have to think a little and sometimes have to "count" from the next I know for sure when the genre-specific number is used. If one says "Beethoven op.22" I know immediately which piece is referred to whereas I have to count down or look up that this is piano sonata #11.

And there are some cases of messed up counting (e.g. Beethoven's piano trios where the Variations and WoO pieces are sometimes counted, sometimes not), so I usually prefer opus numbers in such cases.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

amw

I like the Beaux Arts Trio's song Finale: Prestissimo. It's got some phat beats.

EigenUser

Quote from: Linus on September 13, 2014, 06:07:58 PM
I was wondering whether there are any standards used on this forum regarding references to individual musical pieces? And if not, what would veteran members recommend? (Sorry if this has been asked before; I could not, however, find anything on this topic when searching the forum.)

What to do with opus numbers, movement numbers, movement names etc.?

Is it e.g. recommended to write (for the same piece):

"I listened to Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 15, Andante"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's Op. 28, 2nd movement"

or

"I listened to Beethoven's 'Pastorale' sonata"?
You can find this information in part IX, chapter 3, section (xii), clause 5 (entitled "Accepted Naming Standards") in the GMG Handbook of Rules, Regulations, and Responsibilities which should be arriving soon in the mail. I can have our moderator Gurn send another one it doesn't show up within the next few days.

:D Don't worry so much. Anything goes!
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Linus

Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2014, 12:40:38 AM
For some reason the opus numbers of Beethoven sonatas (and the K numbers of Mozart' piano concertos and chamber music, but NOT the symphonies) are present in my mind whereas I have to think a little and sometimes have to "count" from the next I know for sure when the genre-specific number is used. If one says "Beethoven op.22" I know immediately which piece is referred to whereas I have to count down or look up that this is piano sonata #11.

I hear you. I've never been able to make up my mind as to whether I should remember the opus numbers or genre-specific numbers for those sonatas, so now I've mixed them up completely.

Jo498

I do not know why some ordering seems to remember easier than the other. But opus number has several advantages: The groupings like op.2, op.10, op.31 etc. are explicit. It's also easier to remember that e.g. the Sonatinas op.49 were written much earlier (not shortly before the Waldstein) than to remember that #19 and #20 are "off" as far as the numbers goes.

With Mozart's piano concerti one had to count backwards anyway, because 1-5 are pastiches and the two piano concerto is counted as #10 which adds to the confusion. Much easier K numbers which also give you a rough idea when the piece was composed compared to other Mozart pieces.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

NorthNYMark

Interesting to see this brought up.  As someone who is relatively new to classical music, I sometimes find it (slightly) frustrating  that people switch back and forth between numbering systems when discussing works.  I personally wish people would stick to "Beethoven Piano Sonata #15, second movement," because someone who hasn't memorized the Opus numbers of every composer's oeuvre can at least have a sense of what type of work it is and how early or late it might be within that particular set of works, whereas something like "Beethoven's Op. 28," unless its identity is apparent in the context, will necessitate having to leave the thread to look it up.  It feels like a bit of an insider's game--then again, I suppose it is possible that the posters who only refer to opus numbers do not know the more common titles and would have to look them up as well.

That said, I realize this falls quite squarely into the category of "First World Problems," and isn't something that bothers me a great deal or anything--just something I probably don't fully understand. (I do know that some numbering systems are out of order or the subject of controversy for some reason or other, but I gather that can also be true of Opus numbers as well).

ibanezmonster

Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 14, 2014, 02:38:16 PM
Interesting to see this brought up.  As someone who is relatively new to classical music, I sometimes find it (slightly) frustrating  that people switch back and forth between numbering systems when discussing works.  I personally wish people would stick to "Beethoven Piano Sonata #15, second movement," because someone who hasn't memorized the Opus numbers of every composer's oeuvre can at least have a sense of what type of work it is and how early or late it might be within that particular set of works, whereas something like "Beethoven's Op. 28," unless its identity is apparent in the context, will necessitate having to leave the thread to look it up.  It feels like a bit of an insider's game--then again, I suppose it is possible that the posters who only refer to opus numbers do not know the more common titles and would have to look them up as well.

That said, I realize this falls quite squarely into the category of "First World Problems," and isn't something that bothers me a great deal or anything--just something I probably don't fully understand. (I do know that some numbering systems are out of order or the subject of controversy for some reason or other, but I gather that can also be true of Opus numbers as well).
Yeah, the problem mainly lies in specific composers... Beethoven is a good example. Many modern composers don't have this problem, though, since they might not use opus numbers or any numbering system and don't use a key or form as part of the title.

Linus

I will sound like such an amateur (well, I am), but I'd love if the composers or at least their editors would have given every piece a name in the spirit of "Pathétique", "Appassionata" or "Les Adieux". With a date and year added. Things would have been so much easier for beginners. ;D

listener

Note that not all browsers will display all images or downloads, and titles in images will not be seen by search engines, so a token text mention will be appreciated.
"Keep your hand on the throttle and your eye on the rail as you walk through life's pathway."

Jo498

I agree that "bare" opus or K numbers can sound like a secret language excluding the newbie. Best would be to be redundant and write "Beethoven's piano sonata Nr. 15 op.28 in D major "Pastorale"", but that's just so damn long.
It's just conventions and usually they are understood. If someone says (Beethoven's) "Pastorale" usually the 6th symphony is meant, unless the context makes it obvious that one is talking about piano sonatas.

In any case, this is not really difficult and most people will understand both numberings (unless with Scarlatti, where one really has to look it up), but most newbies will pick up this stuff (as well as some Italian or German technical lingo) quickly. And it has never been so easy to quickly look stuff up as in times of google, wikipedia etc.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

springrite

I think that in some cases, such as the Beethoven Piano Sonatas and Quartets, a lot of people only know them by opus number. I have no idea what number (as in String Quartet #x) Opus 127 String Quartet is, nor Piano Sonata Opus 101. I would not use opus number for Beethoven symphonies, though. Some of these practices are just de facto ways that many if not most people have been using. That is all. If I don't use it this way, my only option is to shut up, because I am not going to search to find out that it is Quartet #x or Sonata #x.
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

amw

Quote from: springrite on September 15, 2014, 12:06:17 AM
I think that in some cases, such as the Beethoven Piano Sonatas and Quartets, a lot of people only know them by opus number. I have no idea what number (as in String Quartet #x) Opus 127 String Quartet is, nor Piano Sonata Opus 101. I would not use opus number for Beethoven symphonies, though. Some of these practices are just de facto ways that many if not most people have been using. That is all. If I don't use it this way, my only option is to shut up, because I am not going to search to find out that it is Quartet #x or Sonata #x.

Fifteen seems to be the cut-off. We know Shostakovich's fifteen symphonies by number, but Beethoven's sixteen quartets only by opus. (Doesn't help that they weren't composed in publication order—#1 chronologically is #3 as published, etc.) Similarly we only know Haydn's symphonies by Hoboken number (and good thing too given how many times he tried to sell his works to different publishers ;) ). Mozart's 27 piano concertos go by K number more often than anything else, but the symphonies are a borderline case (basically there are eight of them, numbered 25, 29, 35, 36, 38, 39, 40 and 41. >.>) I have no idea what they do on the Havergal Brian thread, though.