Haydn Op. 76 vs Beethoven Op. 18??

[Madiel]

K 428... that'd be the piece that, a couple of weeks ago, I heard for the first time and said "gee that sounds a lot like Haydn" and then noted that I'd found it described as Haydnesque in allmusic/Classical Archives as well?

Here's the thing: the fact that Haydn wrote pieces that sound a lot like K 428 after K 428 doesn't preclude the fact that Haydn was writing pieces a lot like K 428 before that as well. That's what Mozart was copying. K 428 is not the first serve in the ball game you referred to.

Please understand, I fully accept that Haydn also wrote Mozartean works. The symphonic Adagio that he wrote in London upon hearing about Mozart's death is probably as good an example as any. It's just that you don't demonstrate the Mozart influence on Haydn by using one of the works where Mozart was most strongly influenced by Haydn!!

Each of the 2 composers has their own personality.

[Jo498]

But there is no earlier Haydn quartet (up to and including op.33) sounding all that much like the beginning of K 428! The slow movement of that piece is also very Mozartean (chromatic), I do no think you will find similiar stuff in Haydn before 1785.
(the finale is something else, this is more Haydn-like).

Of course they have different personalities and are never copying each other and probably the influence of Haydn through op.20 and op.33 is overall stronger.
But it does not really matter much for my point where the ball game exactly starts.

The adagio you mention is from the symphony #98.

[Florestan]

Beethoven's art is [...] reactionary

This greatly puzzles me (and not only me, I suspect).

In order for someone to be a reactionary, there must first be a revolution going around him. Now, what musical revolution was going around during Beethoven's time? I can think of none, other than his own. So, he reacted to his own revolution. Sort of mind-boggling, frankly.

[North Star]

This greatly puzzles me (and not only me, I suspect).

In order for someone to be a reactionary, there must first be a revolution going around him. Now, what musical revolution was going around during Beethoven's time? I can think of none, other than his own. So, he reacted to his own revolution. Sort of mind-boggling, frankly.

One's own revolution is as good as any to react against
For evidence, see String Quartet No. 16 in F major, Op. 135.

[Jo498]

With Beethoven it is "musica reformata et semper reformanda" (but with Haydn as well, AFAIC)

[Florestan]

I am curious what new ground Beethoven was breaking in Op 18?

Let's take op. 18/1, for starters.

To begin with, the key. Of Haydn's 63 SQs, only 5 were in F major; of Mozart's 23 SQs, only 3. That youngster Ludwig must have had bloody hell of a nerve to make his first step into the world of SQ in one of the least used keys before him.

Then, there is that second movement allegedly inspired by the tomb scene in Romeo and Juliet, and this in itself speaks volumes, on multiple levels: (a) back then Shakespeare was mostly frowned upon by the literary establishment and held in high esteem only by the Romantics, the German August Wilhelm Schlegel being one of his most ardent champions (this might seem unimportant, but one must remember that literary Romanticism predates the musical one by at least 30 years); (b) we know for certain (let the incredulous ask Gurn) that Haydn had a rather varied library and annotated the books he read; I have no clue about Mozart's literary tastes and habits; but neither one, nor the other, took inspiration for a movement of their SQs from a literary work, or at least they never acknowledged it; (c) Romeo and Juliet means love, suffering and death, stuff life itself is made of; music becomes thus a medium of reflection upon matters of life and death, on a par with literature and philosophy; I must have missed that part in Haydn and Mozart SQs, and I'd be glad if it be pointed out to me.

Finally, there's the music itself. Haydn in his most dramatic and dark moments still preserves his good-humored nature and winks to the listener in his minuets and finales; Beethoven grips the listener by the neck from the first bar and doesn't let loose of him until the last; replaces minuet with scherzo and far from giving any relief in it, he only intensifies drama and anguish, while the finale is no consolation at all.

Haydn's op. 76 is the work of a consumate master at the height of his creative powers --- a closing door; Beethoven op. 18 the work of a master in the making but who already had something different, very different, in his mind than his predecessor and teacher --- an opening door.

EDIT: That being said, I like both equally.

[jochanaan]

I suspect it will come down to this: Both sets are among the greatest of the great, and they're different.  "

• f making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." --Ecclesiastes 12:12

[Florestan]

Relistening this morning to two quite different versions of op. 18 /1: Quartetto Italiano and Alabn Berg Quartett.

As it was to be expected, the Italiano's are more polished, more refined and have a much more pleasant tone, but that softens the tension a bit and takes away a great deal of the drama; in their hands Beethoven appears as the ideal classicist that Gurn insists he was. 

ABQ's are raw and aggressive, their tone is uncouth at times, but IMO they are more in touch with the spirit of the music; they make the case for a young man determined to take the world by storm.

Although both performances are outstanding, I think ABQ serves Beethoven ideas and ideals better.

Which are your favorite performances?

[amw]

Quatuor Turner.

[Rod Corkin]

"borrowing" is probably too strong. But look at/listen to the first movements of the E flat major K 428 and op.64/6. And then to the finale of op.64/6 and the one of the quintet K 614 (this is probably the most "haydenesque" piece Mozart wrote, the first movement may also be a nod to the E flat quartet from op.50). It is almost like passing balls to each other. There is certainly more (and of course more subtle stuff than almost quoting motives). In Rosen's "The classical style" there is a section or chapter "Haydn after Mozart's death" where some more influences are mentioned.

In K614 Mozart borrows mercilessly from Haydn there is no doubt. Some years back I saw it described by someone as a 'Haydn Pasticcio' and checked out these claims. I could confirm that there are significant borrowings in at least three of the four movements, only my lack of Haydn knowledge prevented my confirming for certain the outstanding movement. The results of this effort can be found at my website.

[Israfel the Black]

Let's take op. 18/1, for starters.

To begin with, the key. Of Haydn's 63 SQs, only 5 were in F major; of Mozart's 23 SQs, only 3. That youngster Ludwig must have had bloody hell of a nerve to make his first step into the world of SQ in one of the least used keys before him.

Then, there is that second movement allegedly inspired by the tomb scene in Romeo and Juliet, and this in itself speaks volumes, on multiple levels: (a) back then Shakespeare was mostly frowned upon by the literary establishment and held in high esteem only by the Romantics, the German August Wilhelm Schlegel being one of his most ardent champions (this might seem unimportant, but one must remember that literary Romanticism predates the musical one by at least 30 years); (b) we know for certain (let the incredulous ask Gurn) that Haydn had a rather varied library and annotated the books he read; I have no clue about Mozart's literary tastes and habits; but neither one, nor the other, took inspiration for a movement of their SQs from a literary work, or at least they never acknowledged it; (c) Romeo and Juliet means love, suffering and death, stuff life itself is made of; music becomes thus a medium of reflection upon matters of life and death, on a par with literature and philosophy; I must have missed that part in Haydn and Mozart SQs, and I'd be glad if it be pointed out to me.

Finally, there's the music itself. Haydn in his most dramatic and dark moments still preserves his good-humored nature and winks to the listener in his minuets and finales; Beethoven grips the listener by the neck from the first bar and doesn't let loose of him until the last; replaces minuet with scherzo and far from giving any relief in it, he only intensifies drama and anguish, while the finale is no consolation at all.

Haydn's op. 76 is the work of a consumate master at the height of his creative powers --- a closing door; Beethoven op. 18 the work of a master in the making but who already had something different, very different, in his mind than his predecessor and teacher --- an opening door.

EDIT: That being said, I like both equally.

Yes!!

I'm of the mind that the Op. 18 no. 1 in F major is actually one of Beethoven's most fascinating pieces of music. It's a personal favorite of mine that rank alongside the best of his work.  I've never really understood the lack of appreciation for his early quartets. They're simply marvelous.

[andolink]

Beethoven's Op. 18 is the more perfect of the two IMO.  The Quatuor Mosaïques' recordings are my benchmark but I haven't heard the Quatuor Turner set which, from all the superlative reviews, sounds very intriguing.

[Madiel]

Yes!!

I'm of the mind that the Op. 18 no. 1 in F major is actually one of Beethoven's most fascinating pieces of music. It's a personal favorite of mine that rank alongside the best of his work.  I've never really understood the lack of appreciation for his early quartets. They're simply marvelous.

I appreciate them plenty. I just don't think, when one looks at all 6 quartets, that they outstrip all 6 quartets of Haydn's op.76 as a whole.

I think Op.18/1 is fantastic. I think the slow movement is especially fantastic. But the poll question had to do with the entire set, and personally I find a greater number of fantastic things in total in op.76.