Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others

[Sean]

MrOsa, there was a whole bunch of Szymanowski songs on a BBC Radio program a few days back but I didn't bother with them: there's a listen-again facility though. His other vocal works are some of his best of course so maybe I should make an effort?

[Maciek]

I definitely prefer his songs for voice and orchestra (some of them have 2 versions). But when the performance is good (which is not always the case, of course) some of them are really beautiful. If you do give them a try, remember to post your impressions!

Maciek

[Maciek]

Well, here's a small update from me.

Another one I'm considering is this:

It has Stefania Woytowicz in most of the songs, and she is one of my favorite Polish sopranos.

I myself still haven't got it but that plus the Woytowicz are the 2 discs my heart is set on. I'll probably finally get it within a month or two - your recommendation might even speed that up a little.

Unfortunately, Woytowicz's singing on this disc (I got the whole Chopin - Complete Works 20 CD set ) is definitely less than satisfying. It only goes to show how deceptively difficult these pieces are. They really look easy because they are extremely simple in terms of melody - but that makes for extremely difficult singing, apparently. It's just so very easy to go over the top with them - a singer really has to keep as restrained as possible, try not to "show off" their voice, treat these as if they were written by Mozart. However, the problem I have with Woytowicz here is not her interpretation but the color of her voice. In all of her other recordings that I know her voice is quite dark and very mezzo-like. Here all of a sudden she's screeching in a really unpleasant manner. The other half of the disc is sung by Andrzej Bachleda, an excellent baritone who also sings a lot of contemporary music. He does a much better job and it's a pleasure to listen to him (a rest for the ears after that first half). However, I can't really recommend the CD as a whole. The search for a perfect set continues...

Next is a great big pack of assorted goodies from Polskie Nagrania.

Then you could round that off with a selection of songs by Chopin and Karlowicz sung by a young Andrzej Hiolski:

This one however turned out to be a real gem. The four Chopin songs may not be perfect (a bit too little of the necessary restraint I mentioned earlier) but they are very good. And the whole Karlowicz cycle is done beautifully, a wonderful recording. I've been listening to it over and over again for the last couple of days. I repeat a wholehearted recommendation.

Cheers,
Maciek

[DevRose]

Hello! I am sorry that I have been absent for so long--I went to visit my family, and it turns out that my mother got rid of her internet connection on a whim. Strange woman. While I was incommunicado, I did listen to a lot of music, notably (and obviously most relevant to this thread and this update) the Podles Treasury of Polish Songs. I love these songs. I love this singer. I love this pianist. And, finally, I love this cd. I was trying to pick a favorite or two to mention in particular, but I kept changing my mind about which two. Then I tried to pick a favorite composer on the disc, and couldn't do that either. The singing and playing are beautifully done. Ewa Podles's dark voice sounds gorgeous in these songs, and her singing is matched by Ewa Poblocka's playing. It was the perfect introduction to these luscious songs.    I would recommend this cd! I am sure that someone else probably has a different opinion, but there you go.

Rosie

[Maciek]

Hi Rosie!

I was away too, for the past 2 weeks (almost). I got back last night and ordered the Podles/Poblocka disc first thing this morning - even before reading your review above! Now I have a long wait ahead - the disc seems to be out of stock, and it might even turn out to be OOP (discs by Polish labels are usually available a little longer abroad than they are here... probably because overseas shops sell their stocks more slowly... ).

Maciek

[Maciek]

Another update:

First of all there's this 5 CD set of the Polish mezzo Krystyna Szostek-Radkowa, released by the Polish Radio:


I don't have this set but this is one of my favorite Polish singers, a really lovely voice. The set isn't exactly crammed with Polish repertoire but since you generally like art song I'm sure that won't be a problem . The first disc is Schubert-Schumann-Brahms. CD number 2 is Karlowicz (5 songs)-Szymanowski (3 songs in Russian!)-Mussorgsky-Rachmaninov-Tchaikovsky. Number 3 is Debussy-Henryk Mikolaj Gorecki (3 songs)-Lutoslawski (the Illakowiczowna settings that one of our members, Edward, has recommended on several occasions)-Szymanowski (the 3 Kasprowicz Hymns)-Mahler. Disc number 4 is baroque music with very few Polish tracks, CD 5 is filled with opera arias, including only one by Moniuszko. It looks like a really splendid set, and quite a bargain (over here it costs only a little more than that single Podles disc!).

Note 1: The Szymanowski songs are sung NOT in Russian - it's just that their Russian titles are listed in front of the Polish ones for some reason.

Note 2: This set turned out to be everything I expected and much more. It is a pure delight! Wholehearted recommendation!

And another disc set from the same label, 3 CDs of music sung by Bernard Ladysz, a celebrated bass-baritone. He was quite famous for his interpretations of Moniuszko, and this set contains a few songs and opera arias by that composer. As well as an entire disc devoted to songs by Rachmaninov. And, strangely enough, an entire disc devoted to popular songs (??)...

This, OTOH, is quite a dud. Yes, Ladysz is the only Polish singer to have been invited to sing alongside Callas (in one of her Lucia recordings) BUT:

Note 1: There is no "entire disc devoted to songs by Rachmaninov" in the set - there was a mistake on the page I took my information from.

Note 2: No less than 2 of the discs in this 3 disc set are devoted musicals and popular songs, and not very good ones either.

My verdict is: unless you're a Ladysz completist get yourself his classical recordings - there are a few recital discs out there - but you really don't need this set.

Of course, you may want it just for that small picture of him before the sex change operation in the upper left corner...

[Maciek]

Just an update re the 2 sets above. After repeated listening I have come to the following conclusion: 1) the high quality of the first disc in the Ładysz disc justifies buying the whole set, even if the third one is pure garbage, and the second contains only a few usable tracks. 2) My enthusiasm for Krystyna Szostek-Radek, OTOH, has waned somewhat. There are much better interpretations out there of practically every piece she sings. The only really interesting disc is the one where she sings baroque arias - there are some very rarely recorded Polish pieces here. Still, I'm not sure if another singer wouldn't have done better. This is an on the whole unpleasant experience, as Szostek-Radkowa was one of the first singers whose voice I appreciated. It's sad to discover after some years that she wasn't really all that good... (Hopefully, another couple of years will pass and I'll be ready for a reappraisal. )

[zamyrabyrd]

With all due respect, Chopin's compositions for voice are not anywhere near his piano writing. His few compositions for cello and piano come in a close second as his friend August Franchomme performed with him and no doubt schooled him on how to write for the instrument.

Unless I missed something, and I think I have the complete collection of songs published by Schirmer, the voice part is pale by comparison to the piano. Schumann may have equalized both but 'piano with voice accompaniment' is a little too unbalanced. Even his works with orchestra kind of strides the fence here as there is very little interaction with the piano (star of the show) in the concertos and in the other works the orchestra can readily be dispensed with (Krakowiak, Andante Spianato & Grand Polonaise).

The "Maiden's Wish" has some nice passages for piano but that's really about it. Liszt's transcription is an improvement, in my opinion. Maybe the text endears these songs to Polish speakers but that alone  cannot compensate for the lack of musical substance.

ZB

[Maciek]

Ah, the notorious ZB hath spoke, and very discontentful words! Why did it take you so long to join us? The subject of Chopin's songs hasn't been touched in this thread since May!

With all due respect, Chopin's compositions for voice are not anywhere near his piano writing.

"Not anywhere near" in what respect?

Fame and popularity? Difficult to say - apparently that differs from country to country. They are performed far more often in Eastern Europe, in countries like Poland or Russia. You should also take into account how long it took for these compositions to get published. None of them saw the printing press before 1859, and quite a few had to wait until as late as 1910!

Intricacy? Here we obviously disagree but then I've mentioned that my feelings used to be similar to yours. I can only hope that with time you will see the beauty of these little gems, even if they may seem difficult now. A closer acquaintance with Chopin's Mazurkas (pieces permeated with a similar type of deceptive simplicity) would help - as his songs are obvious vocal counterparts. Reading up on the songs would help a bit too - I'm under the impression that you neither know when they were written (and although they're collected in one opus - plus the two without opus - they span his entire lifetime) or why and for whom. Almost all of the Witwicki settings were written by a 19-year old and not intended for publication - they were gifts to friends, amateur musicians at best. Even Pierscien, written 7 years later, was composed as a love token for Maria Wodzinska. The song Wiosna, written in the following year, one where the simplicity admittedly goes too far (the whole harmony is essentially based on 2 chords), seems to have been composed with the sole purpose of copying into various ladies' albums. I don't think a single one of Chopin's songs was written as a "serious composition" (even his last, the brilliant Melodia, he inscribed into Delfina Potocka's album). The 10 Pol songs (of which only one remains) were probably conceived of as popular patriotic songs - they were first presented at a meeting of Poles held to commemorate the outbreak of the November Uprising. It is all the more interesting to see how good many of them are.

His few compositions for cello and piano come in a close second as his friend August Franchomme performed with him and no doubt schooled him on how to write for the instrument.

Judging by the Grand duo which they wrote together - Franchomme had really very little to offer. I wonder where you got your rather original idea?

Anyway, First of all, what is truly amazing about Chopin's Cello Sonata is the piano part - the way it differs completely from his earlier pieces, including other chamber works like the Piano Trio or the Polonaise brillante op. 3. It is definitely one of Chopin's masterpieces that stands proudly beside his solo piano works. It marks an astonishing stylistic turn in his writing: in terms of harmonics it is one of his most modern works (the frequent, abrupt key changes!), and the texture is also a completely new world, with all the flowery ornamentation cut down to an absolute minimum.

So what you say is really not much of an argument: first, because it has nothing to do with the songs. And second, because the Cello Sonata is not a "close second" to Chopin's piano works but a piece of equal standing, in fact better than many of them. The same goes for the Polonaise which is just as good as many of the piano polonaises. And the claim that the great composer Franchomme "schooled" Chopin in composition really is silly - I hope you meant it as a joke?

Unless I missed something, and I think I have the complete collection of songs published by Schirmer, the voice part is pale by comparison to the piano.

The edition I'm using is from the Complete Works edited by Paderewski. The piano part in most of the songs is extremely modest, in some places laughably so. There's hardly a difficult passage in the whole set (the only aspect that could pose some difficulty, and certainly not to an advanced pianist!, is the speed in some of the faster pieces). So I really can't see how on earth the voice part can pale in comparison to the piano...

Schumann may have equalized both but 'piano with voice accompaniment' is a little too unbalanced.

I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker and my English sometimes fails me. Could you explain in more detail what you mean here?

Even his works with orchestra kind of strides the fence here

"Here" = where?? (I guess if I understood the previous sentence I wouldn't have a problem with this one...)

as there is very little interaction with the piano (star of the show) in the concertos and in the other works the orchestra can readily be dispensed with (Krakowiak, Andante Spianato & Grand Polonaise).

Speculations about who actually orchestrated the concertos aside, I'm sure you're aware of the fact that the sparse orchestra writing was a conscious decision on Chopin's part - these compositions were written with chamber performances in mind. It was essential that they'd be written in a way where the orchestra could be omitted without much loss to the music. And what has this got to do with the songs anyway?

The "Maiden's Wish" has some nice passages for piano but that's really about it.

I disagree. In fact, I think it is a little masterpiece. Concise and simple, yet not for a moment primitive!

Also, why not comment on the ones I've singled out in my first post? Or on Melodia (no. 9) - possibly his greatest vocal composition?

Liszt's transcription is an improvement, in my opinion.

In what way? IIRC, Liszt doesn't add anything (or not much) - quite untypically of him. He simply has the piano play both the voice part and the accompaniment, no?

Maybe the text endears these songs to Polish speakers but that alone  cannot compensate for the lack of musical substance.

That's plain silly. More than half of Chopin's remaining songs were written to texts by Witwicki, a second rate poet (the same could also be said of Pol) - and these are actually the earlier, more popular ones! Osinski was in fact a third-rater but Chopin wrote one of his best songs (Piosnka litewska) to his text. Also, the setting of Precz z moich oczu (by Mickiewicz) remains Chopin's certainly poorest vocal effort (OTOH, Moja pieszczotka is one of the little masterpieces). The Zaleski settings are pretty conventional too.

It is worth mentioning though, that the unpretentious simplicity of the music does fit the (intended) simplicity of Witwicki's texts perfectly - the folk tilt is extremely strong here (the hollow fifths, the diatonic scales, the use of pentatonic, the folk dance rhythms). This simplicity is essentially retained even in the two more intricate songs: Gdzie lubi and Wojak.

[zamyrabyrd]

Ah, the notorious ZB hath spoke, and very discontentful words!

Wow! I'm not going to repeat your screed. It's obvious that people who have a certain preference for certain music will not have tolerance for those who do not share your views.

I know a LOT of people who think that Chopin's songs fall FAR below his other music.

If you didn't know, composers work hand in hand with instrumentalists, like Brahms with Joachim on how to extract the best from the violin, what keys are best, passages that are easier, harder compared to others and much more. Brahms' father, I believe played the horn and later in life the composer had a clarinetist as a close friend. Writing for any instrument doesn't come out of the head of Jove. I was reading that Beethoven had much early schooling in different instruments. This just makes sense. So it is not a joke that Franchomme probably spent many hours showing Chopin the inner workings of 'cello playing.

Chopin was familiar enough with Bellinian roulades for the voice but instead transfigured them for piano. He was an honest person who knew what his strengths and weaknesses were. In fact, his countrymen wanted him to write the great Polish Opera but fortunately didn't venture into waters that he was not suited for.

from NOTORIOUS ZB, really, thanks a LOT
(who actually plays much of Chopin's music like the 2 piano concertos, andante spianato, etc., and taught a great deal over 30 years and incidentally is very cognizant of the Mazurkas and their HARMONIC importance)

[Maciek]

Wow! I'm not going to repeat your screed. It's obvious that people who have a certain preference for certain music will not have tolerance for those who do not share your views.

I'm not the one who used the "with all due respect" phrase. And if you go back to your own post you might notice that not once did you assert that the views presented were only your own. All you did is authoritatively proclaim "Chopin's songs are this, Chopin's cello writing is that, his piano concertos are this and that". Where exactly is the "certain preference" part, pray tell?

I know a LOT of people who think that Chopin's songs fall FAR below his other music.

Let me use a similar type of clear, logical argumentation: I know a LOT of people who think different! Including his monographers, like Zielinski.

If you didn't know, composers work hand in hand with instrumentalists, like Brahms with Joachim on how to extract the best from the violin, what keys are best, passages that are easier, harder compared to others and much more.

Yes, I'm aware of that but it is what is hiding in the "much more" part that I oppose to.

He was an honest person who knew what his strengths and weaknesses were.

I wonder why then, at the end of his life, was he planning to collect all the songs and publish them (possibly after heavy rewriting)?

In fact, his countrymen wanted him to write the great Polish Opera but fortunately didn't venture into waters that he was not suited for.

Oh, come on! You want to drag opera into this too? Fine, how about Schubert or Schumann then?

from NOTORIOUS ZB, really, thanks a LOT
(who actually plays much of Chopin's music like the 2 piano concertos, andante spianato, etc., and taught a great deal over 30 years and incidentally is very cognizant of the Mazurkas and their HARMONIC importance)

All good and well but what sort of an argument is that??

[zamyrabyrd]

All good and well but what sort of an argument is that??

I don't want to argue and certainly not with you. Those composers who wrote well for the voice had an intimate INSIDE knowledge of it, like Handel, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini, Verdi, Puccini, etc. Those who SING appreciate know when the music fits like a glove and the same for instrumentalists and when it doesn't. (9 years ago a violinist--who played with the Paris Opera--was going crazy trying with me to negotiate the figurations in the Schubert duo written when he was 16 and not too much knowledge of string writing under his cap.) Also composers know their strengths and weaknesses, or should. Sibelius allegedly didn't like the piano as an instrument very much so therefore hardly wrote for it. Just because someone is an outstanding writer for piano doesn't qualify him/her for every other instrument.

I really wish you'd get off my case.

ZB

[Maciek]

I really wish you'd get off my case.

Fine. This isn't going anywhere anyway.

Anyone have a recording to recommend?

[Maciek]

I guess one of the reason these songs are so often offhandedly dismissed is that there are so few of them, and the quality certainly is not evenly distributed between that few. Here are a few samples from my favorites.

Smutna rzeka - the musical construction is pretty simple (in comparison to the next two) but still I find it extremely effective emotionally (a very sad song). Here performed by Andrzej Bachleda (tenor) and Wanda Klimowicz (piano). The sample starts at the beginning and is cut off about a third of the way through:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Smutna%20rzeka%20%28Witwicki%29%20Bachleda%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Leci liscie z drzewa - this has many amazing effects, such as the 16 bars in a row of the voice repeating the same sound. Here performed by Stefania Woytowicz (soprano) and Wanda Klimowicz. The sample is taken roughly from the middle of the song, and contains the fragment mentioned:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Leci%20liscie%20drzewa%20%28Pol%29%20Woytowicz%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Melodia - Chopin's very last song, very original, showing the heights he was capable of, and the fascinating direction his songwriting would have taken had he lived longer. Here performed by Bachleda and Klimowicz. This is the song's depressing ending:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Melodia%20%28Krasinski%29%20Bachleda%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Oddly enough, all three touch on pessimistic patriotic subjects (the November Uprising).

[zamyrabyrd]

I didn't have to search far and wide for validation of what I wrote about Chopin's songs. The second clip offers more of a musicological explanation why these didn't exactly come up to his other output.

Frederick Chopin as a Man and Musician, by Frederick Niecks (1902 !)

"As to Chopin, the composer of songs, the case is very simple. His pianoforte pieces are original tone-poems of exquisite beauty; his songs, though always acceptable, and sometimes charming, are not. We should know nothing of them and the composer, if of his works they alone had been published. In not publishing them himself, Chopin gave us his own opinion, an opinion confirmed by the singers in rarely performing them and by the public in little caring for them. In short, Chopin's songs add nothing to his fame. To mention them in one breath with those of Schubert and
Schumann,  or even with those of Robert Franz and Adolf Jensen, is the act of an hero-worshipping enthusiast, not of a discriminating critic."

Good e article about music history for those in need of some musical education:
Classical Music and Romantic Music - Part Two
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/m151/Romantic_Music2.html

"Even more than Schumann, Chopin had little interest or taste for large-scale Classical forms. Unlike Schumann, however, Chopin drew little inspiration from literature. Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs. And, of his other works, only the four Ballades have a literary connection, and even here there is more of a narrative feeling rather than a feeling of a concrete musical foundation. Chopin had little taste for the emotional exuberance, the free spontaneity, the abrupt and extreme contrasts of Schumann or other Romantics. A certain underlying sobriety, a certain unconscious distancing of himself and his emotions from his music (except symbolically as a Pole) is rather a "Classical" element in the music of this Romantic composer."
Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D.

To sum up, Chopin was more a product of his Bach tutelage than of the immediate romantic influences. He succeeded in composing music that is essentially about music, the REAL enduring quality about his work. This is the main reason he was never successfully imitated. One would have to have a deep grounding in the music of Bach that served as the basis for his harmonic experimentation and innovation.  The Mazurkas therefore are spiritual heirs to the dances in Bach's Partitas, English and French Suites.

The songs have rather a flat quality by comparison to his other works and to other art song composers like Schubert. The harmonies and accompaniments are rather pedestrian, except for some interesting passagework for the piano here and there. By comparison there is not one "dud" in the 600+ songs by Schubert. It's a certain approach that is missing--an intuitive understanding of the possibiities of the voice and the willingness to be subordinate to the words.

Sorry if some people don't like this but it's not only my opinion.

ZB

[Maciek]

Dear zamyrabyrd,

It was you yourself who proposed we end the subject. My previous post was not addressed to you but to the people who responded to the thread in April - they had not heard any of Chopin's songs before and were interested. Since GMG now has the functionality to allow for samples, I could at last oblige them.

If you don't like Chopin's songs, that's fine with me - there are many people who don't. In fact, there are many people who don't like vocal music at all, or people who don't like classical music. That's not a problem. (Not a single one of my close friends likes classical music - except for GMG friends, of course - and of the people in my professional circles no one except my PhD advisor has any interest in it.) However, your view is not the only valid one. If you want proof that people who like Chopin's songs exist - you don't have to take my word for the existence of others (quite a few of them here - every self-respecting Polish singer has recorded them) but, well, I'm one!

Now, it is clear that we do not agree on Chopin's songs. You think they're worthless rubbish and a waste of time. I think they are a mixed (though admittedly very small ) bag containing a few extremely palatable gems. You think that Chopin wasn't a songwriter on the level of Schubert, and that Chopin could not write as well for voice as Bellini, Verdi etc. I never contradicted that statement. In fact, I don't have a fully formed opinion.

As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.

As for what Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D. say, well, I have 2 (minor) qualms:
1) "Chopin drew little inspiration from literature". I'm not sure what this contention is based on. Do they give a source? Like correspondence? I was under the impression that quite the opposite was true... (I mean a general influence, not one of the type where you can say "this piece influenced this, and that that".)
2) "Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs." Though perhaps this isn't exactly a howler, it is quite inaccurate. Some of the songs have absolutely nothing folk-like about them. For example: Wojak, Przecz z moich oczu, Melodia, Moja pieszczotka, Sliczny chlopiec (these last 2 are mazurkas with no folk characteristics whatsoever). Secondly, Chopin did not confine himself to Polish folklore - there are Ukrainian elements in a few of his songs (in Dwojaki koniec and both the dumkas: Dumka and Nie ma czego trzeba). So out of the 19 songs the composer had written at least 8 do not fit that statement. Also, I'm not sure how to interpret the phrase "dressed-up Polish folk songs" - I hope it's not supposed to mean direct musical quotation because that is simply not true (there are quotations in the mazurkas but not in his songs).

I haven't got a copy of Tomaszewski's monograph at hand. The other top contemporary authority on Chopin is Tadeusz Zielinski. You probably know that scholars very rarely agree on value-laden subjects. But just so other people are aware that there are views out there contradictory to what you have quoted, here's a bit from Zielinski's book:
"...probably his most beautiful song, entitled Piosnka litewska. Writing this Chopin couldn't have thought of it as a marginal piece. It is charmingly melodious, rich, rhythmically lithe, harmonically diverse, full of suggestive expression..." (Chopin. Życie i droga twórcza, Kraków 1993, p. 200). A 2-page analysis follows. Then: "Piosnka litewska, with its lovingly shaped form and wide palette of moving expressive gestures does not leave any doubt that had Chopin devoted more of his time to songwriting he could have become a subtle master of the genre." (p. 202) The other 2 songs Zielinski singles out elsewhere in his book are Moja pieszczotka and Melodia.

Thanks very much for your thoughts about the Chopin-Bach connection. There are times when I think I'm the only one who sees it - good to know there are others out there. I hope you're not saying that Bach didn't write well for voice, though?

Regards,
Maciek

[zamyrabyrd]

Dear zamyrabyrd,
It was you yourself who proposed we end the subject. My previous post was not addressed to you but to the people who responded to the thread in April - they had not heard any of Chopin's songs before and were interested. Since GMG now has the functionality to allow for samples, I could at last oblige them.

Dear Maciek,
I mainly wanted you to stop those ad hominem (mulierem) attacks on me. The thread has the name "Chopin" on it, so why is surprising that someone noticed it and responded to it? And what difference would it had made if the thread was on the back page?

If you don't like Chopin's songs, that's fine with me - there are many people who don't. In fact, there are many people who don't like vocal music at all, or people who don't like classical music. That's not a problem. (Not a single one of my close friends likes classical music - except for GMG friends, of course - and of the people in my professional circles no one except my PhD advisor has any interest in it.) However, your view is not the only valid one. If you want proof that people who like Chopin's songs exist - you don't have to take my word for the existence of others (quite a few of them here - every self-respecting Polish singer has recorded them) but, well, I'm one!

It's not a question or like or dislike but giving my REASONS why I didn't think this was the best example of Chopin's art
seems to have propelled you off the deep end. But this has happened here many times before, strong personal LIKES blind one to ANY criticism. So I didn't want to get caught up in an emotional imbroglio especially as yesterday I didn't have a lot of time, except to give a few opinions backed up by reasons, respectfully presented.

Now, it is clear that we do not agree on Chopin's songs. You think they're worthless rubbish and a waste of time. I think they are a mixed (though admittedly very small ) bag containing a few extremely palatable gems. You think that Chopin wasn't a songwriter on the level of Schubert, and that Chopin could not write as well for voice as Bellini, Verdi etc. I never contradicted that statement. In fact, I don't have a fully formed opinion.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth and thoughts into my head. I thought it was strange for many years that a person who admired the Bel Canto of the early 19th century could not translate that to voice. But this exchange plus the second quote of mine forced me to think about the subject further. You thought that my contention that Franchomme showed Chopin the intricacies of 'cello playing was a joke. Actually, you twisted what I wrote and said that I stated that Franchomme showed Chopin how to compose. I gave other examples of composers who were familiar with instruments and wrote special music for them BECAUSE they had close friends or colleagues who played them.

I think I can speak as a vocal instrumentalist who can recognize if something "fits" or not vocally, over an above whether or not it has intrinsic musical value. Chopin did not seem interested in getting too deep as a composer for voice although he taught at least one of the Viardot sisters and accompanied them.

Singing Bach IS a problem for a few reasons, one being the differences of tuning back then. The passaggio in men's and women's voices good VOCAL composers know how to avoid. Actually, transposing down of Mozart's arias to where they were actually sung makes them MUCH easier to sing since they don't go back and forth over the (high) passaggio. Bach, like Beethoven tended to regard the voice instrumentally and demanded much more than a Handel who was deeply cognizant of the problems, so therefore, most, if not all of his vocal music "fits like a glove".

As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.

Get a grip, Maciek. Was the baby up all night or something? Do you really think I'm looking for DAMNING articles? For the first time, I started to understand that the abstract quality (and polyphony, if hidden) of Chopin's music, derived from his study of Bach, was a factor as to why he was different from the songbirds of the early 19th century.

As for what Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D. say, well, I have 2 (minor) qualms:
1) "Chopin drew little inspiration from literature". I'm not sure what this contention is based on. Do they give a source? Like correspondence? I was under the impression that quite the opposite was true... (I mean a general influence, not one of the type where you can say "this piece influenced this, and that that".)
2) "Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs." Though perhaps this isn't exactly a howler, it is quite inaccurate. Some of the songs have absolutely nothing folk-like about them. For example: Wojak, Przecz z moich oczu, Melodia, Moja pieszczotka, Sliczny chlopiec (these last 2 are mazurkas with no folk characteristics whatsoever). Secondly, Chopin did not confine himself to Polish folklore - there are Ukrainian elements in a few of his songs (in Dwojaki koniec and both the dumkas: Dumka and Nie ma czego trzeba). So out of the 19 songs the composer had written at least 8 do not fit that statement. Also, I'm not sure how to interpret the phrase "dressed-up Polish folk songs" - I hope it's not supposed to mean direct musical quotation because that is simply not true (there are quotations in the mazurkas but not in his songs).

They're referring to program music, I believe. Though George Sand and others tried to fit programs to Chopin's music (waltzes, preludes, etc.) in the main his compositions were not supposed to derive from literature in the same way that Schumann's works were. Some extra-musical ideas like the rattle of the chains of the Polish prisoners in the Eb Minor Polonaise, or the bells of a monastery in the nocturnes, provide color but is not the main point. The music is.

Thanks very much for your thoughts about the Chopin-Bach connection. There are times when I think I'm the only one who sees it - good to know there are others out there. I hope you're not saying that Bach didn't write well for voice, though?

Gee thanks 
As I mentioned previously the Chopin-Bach connection came to my consciousness gradually. Bach pushed tonality to its upper chromatic limits in some of his works so it's understandable that a composer like Chopin who revered the Master bravely ventured on that path way before other composers. The 25th Prelude comes to mind and the Polonaise Fantasie, the shattering glass chromaticism of the E major Etude (Op 10, no. 3), his enharmonic transformations (C# minor to Db major), the use of modes, the lydian 4th (taken from folk music), the juxtaposition of tonalities in the Mazurkas, the polyphonic texture of his later works such as the 3rd piano sonata. About the latter, even when it is not obvious, are many hidden voices, enriching his content. Chopin had a first class musical mind above all and his music will endure because of that.

Regards,
Janet

[Maciek]

As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.

Get a grip, Maciek. Was the baby up all night or something? Do you really think I'm looking for DAMNING articles? For the first time, I started to understand that the abstract quality (and polyphony, if hidden) of Chopin's music, derived from his study of Bach, was a factor as to why he was different from the songbirds of the early 19th century.

What I had in mind was this:

I didn't have to search far and wide for validation of what I wrote about Chopin's songs. The second clip offers more of a musicological explanation why these didn't exactly come up to his other output.

And now I can see that what you meant was the article clipping you posted while I thought you meant was the sound clip that I posted. So it was just a misunderstanding. I thought you thought the second sound clip gave (figuratively speaking) a musicological explanation why the songs aren't good.

As for calling you "notorious" (if that's what you mean by "ad mulierem attacks"), I'm sorry if I offended you - I can edit that out if you like. It was meant to be half-serious - what follows is an obscure (I admit) private joke (probably not very funny either): "He told me also how Sir [Richard] Temple hath spoke very discontentfull words in the House about the Tryennial Bill" - The Diary of Samuel Pepys, entry for Saturday 26 March 1664.

[zamyrabyrd]

"He told me also how Sir [Richard] Temple hath spoke very discontentfull words in the House about the Tryennial Bill" - The Diary of Samuel Pepys, entry for Saturday 26 March 1664.

Wow, you read the diary of Samuel Pepys??? I never got around to that, though I DID read the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin and some letters by Mozart and Beethoven.

ZB

[Maciek]

Not all of it, dear God, no! (Actually, it may be a very good read for all I know 0:)). But I have read a few bits and pieces - I have to read all sorts of strange material when researching for my thesis. Boswell would certainly be my favorite discovery in this realm of frantic sampling (never enough time).

I've read some letters by Mozart too - my wife was reading them a couple of years ago (I don't know why, she doesn't really like music of the classical period) and pointed out the "best" ones (well, you know, the most bizarre ones if measured against contemporary customs ).