My existential Chardonnay crisis

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

We had a huge wine thread here before, but I really get lost in threads that have dozens of pages worth of replies. In any case, there seems to be enough interest in wine here to merit threads more specific than just "wine". So anyhoo...

Do you drink this varietal, or white Burgundy (the ones made from Chardonnay that is), Chablis?
For years I have regarded this varietal as just plain nasty, with a core of industrial-strength cleaning solvent or propellant for some kind of nasty engine (leaf blowers?). Maybe it's because I tried to find affordable examples, but everything I tried under $20 turned out to be crap--unlike nearly other varietal (except maybe Pinot Noir), which has many good to excellent examples in the $10-20 dollar, if not cheaper, range.

Dann... Eines Tages, um Flughafen Newark, awaiting my lovely United Airlines coach-class flight to Oslo Norway, I stopped in at the wine bar and had a glass (or two) of the magnificent Stag's Leap Chardonnay. Not "Karia" or any of the other designations--just plain Stag's Leap Chardonnay that you can get for about $20. I was amazed at the layering of flavors, complexity, and deliciousness of this wine! It was one of the best white wines I've ever had, up there with the sublime Rieslings and Vouvrays (or, as some people would say, ahem, "Vouvray's"  ) I have enjoyed over the years.

So, I started thinking more about this varietal that I had dismissed for over a decade, preferring the reliable Pinot Grigio, and of course the Vouvray and Rieslings I mentioned above...

Along comes my new subscription to Wine Spectator with a new article on Chardonnay... (ellipses are easier than punctuation, and I'm not in the 5th grade anymore so fcuk it!)... ... ... So I started trying some of the budget ones from the 2012 California Vintage... ... ... Hess, and Smoking Loon Steelbird non-oaked were both pretty good, with a nice medley of flavors, but still had a hint of that nasty Chardonnay nastiness that has turned me off for years. Beringer was non-remarkable, and I am still trying. I think it may be worth splurging for the Rombauer ($32) just to say I've tried a number of highly-rated Chardonnays and still don't really care for them.

I am still going to try some white Burgundys, Chablis and the like. Maybe soon I'll throw in the towel with Chardonnay (actually the most popular wine in the U.S.), but I still want to continue experimenting. So...

Do you like Chardonnay, and if so, what do you recommend, both as an everyday version, and a more expensive one for special occasions?

Do you like white Burgundys? Which ones?

Are you like me--a Chardonnay skeptic--and what other white wines to you prefer??

[mc ukrneal]

The Rombauer is good. Whether you will like it, not sure, because I don't really understand what taste you find nasty. It is a creamier, oaky, buttery style. A cheaper, simpler version of this (not as good, but some of the same qualities - not terrible either) is the Kendal Jackson Reserve at about $12-15 (but the Rombauer is way better). Mer du Soliel is another is this style that is pretty good (similar price range). Try the Rombauer, and tell us what it tastes like to you. I just don't know the other wines you listed or can't remember them.

I see no problems just skipping certain grapes if they don't appeal to you. I personally steer clear of Pinot Grigio, a grape I detest. I find it too thin, often acidic, and often unbalanced. Although, it can sometimes be ok with very specific food pairings. Riesling is my favorite white.

Recommendations are harder as there seems to be a specific taste you dislike (and until I understand what that is, hard to give a good rec). There were a couple Courtney Benhams that I liked (they have many, but I only tried the ones under $20) if you see them. I like Burgandy, but they are usually too expensive in the US. 

[The new erato]

I like Chablis and Burgundy, the point being that they (pace the whole appellation system) are Chablis and Burgundy, not Chardonnay. Chardonnay is a pretty neutral and transparent grape which needs the right hands and right terroir. Given that, they are among the worlds sublime white wines. Under other circumstances, they may be pretty uninteresting, or, being harvested very late/ripe and given the oak treatment, downright nasty.

[Brian]

Another Chardonnay skeptic here. I don't like the thick, buttery taste, and don't like how heavily oaked it usually is in the United States. Oddly enough, I do have a bottle of Chardonnay in the house right now - a totally unoaked Australian bottle, just to see what it's like.

I prefer Pinot Blanc to Pinot Grigio; blanc has a little softer, more well-rounded taste, to me at least. Last night I continued my run of very, very good luck with Chenin Blanc bottles from South Africa; you can get good stuff for $10-12. Thus my main squeezes for white wines these days are South Africa and New Zealand, the best of whose Sauvignons Blanc could keep me happy all summer long.

[The new erato]

Another Chardonnay skeptic here. I don't like the thick, buttery taste, and don't like how heavily oaked it usually is in the United States.

This: 

Under other circumstances, they may be pretty uninteresting, or, being harvested very late/ripe and given the oak treatment, downright nasty.

[Sergeant Rock]

being harvested very late/ripe and given the oak treatment, downright nasty.

And yet...one of the most delicious Chardonnays I've ever tasted was a Chardonnay Auslese trocken that had been aged in new oak by Weingut Knipser. I was not the only one who enjoyed it. An American friend I shared the bottle with (who, by the way, dislikes oaky Cali Chardonnay) thought it great too.

Sarge

[Brian]

And yet...one of the most delicious Chardonnays I've ever tasted was a Chardonnay Auslese that had been aged in new oak by Weingut Knipser. I was not the only one who enjoyed it. An American friend I shared the bottle with (who, by the way, dislikes oaky Cali Chardonnay) thought it great too.

Sarge

Congrats on post #17,000!

A friend of mine dislikes California styles in general, red and white. For some reason I love the unsubtle jam of zinfandel, but not the unsubtle oak of chardonnay. Different tastes, I guess.

Are Washington state chardonnays much different? Anybody know? There are a lot of affordable wines from Washington, so that could be a target for this conversation.

[SonicMan46]

Congrats on post #17,000!

A friend of mine dislikes California styles in general, red and white. For some reason I love the unsubtle jam of zinfandel, but not the unsubtle oak of chardonnay. Different tastes, I guess.

Are Washington state chardonnays much different? Anybody know? There are a lot of affordable wines from Washington, so that could be a target for this conversation.

I've been drinking Chardonnay since the 1960s and use to like the oaky wood-aged (and even oak fermented on their lees) ones - once had a nice collection of white Burgundies (including Chablis), the better ones from California (again some oaky enough to cause splinters in your esophagus!), and a number from elsewhere (like Australia).  As the years went by & my cellar dwindled, especially as the prices of the better Burgundies & California Chards escalated to the point that I did not feel a beverage was worth that much money (rather buy a reuseable product like CDs & BDs - ) - I've also migrated away from this grape to other whites, such as Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Gris (Blanc), and others.

In addition in my travels (Oregon, New York State, et al) and locally (in NC & Virginia), I've tasted a LOT of Chardonnay, much of it mediocre but w/ some surprises and different flavors & aromas - so worth a try to visit the wineries in your locale.  As to Brian's question concerning Washington State Chardonnay, I would encourage you to pursue those wines - the largest 'wine companies' in WA are Ch. Ste. Michelle & Columbia Crest which make an assortment of wines from this grape, some really bargains (such as the CC Grand Estates) - Ch. Ste. Michelle also sources grapes from the Horse Heaven Hills region - I drink a lot of their Indian Wells vineyard Chardonnay, Merlot, & Cabernet Sauvignon (usually about $16/bottle in my area) - there are plenty of smaller wineries in that state making excellent wines but few seen to reach me on the east coast.  ALSO, for those who may dislike the taste of oaky Chardonnay, there are plenty of non-oak offerings - one big advantage w/ that varietal is it is quite malleable!  Dave

[jochanaan]

I used to enjoy Chardonnay, but recently all the Chardonnay's I've sampled seem flavor-light, like they need to breathe but breathing doesn't help them.  If I go white, I tend toward Riesling or White Zinfandel.  Haven't had any good Chablis for ages...

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Thanks for your comments and recommendations. I do recommend the Hess Select 2012 and Smokikng Loon Steelbird unoaked 2012. Both are well-made, quite drinkable (even for a chardonnay skeptic), and pleasantly complex. The Beringer is not that great IMO (at least the Mendocino 2012 I bought). I just picked up a Kunde Estate Sonoma 2012, and will try that likely next week.

... because I don't really understand what taste you find nasty...

I don't know how to describe it except to say that I can nearly always pick up this distinctive flavor in Chardonnays (except for the Stag's Leap). It is more prominent in Chardonnays I dislike, and nearly invisible in those I do like. Will try the Rombauer as soon as I can get over to BevMo.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Not a chardonnay, but I highly recommend this one, found in Wine Spectator recently. This has an amazingly complex layering of fruit, floral, and spice flavors, and would be an extremely versatile pairing with pretty much any Asian or Indian food, seafood, or even heavier fare. I had never tried a torrontes before (not grown outside Argenitina), but to me it is somewhat similar to a good dry riesling. $8 at Trader Joes.

[SonicMan46]

Not a chardonnay, but I highly recommend this one, found in Wine Spectator recently. This has an amazingly complex layering of fruit, floral, and spice flavors, and would be an extremely versatile pairing with pretty much any Asian or Indian food, seafood, or even heavier fare. I had never tried a torrontes before (not grown outside Argenitina), but to me it is somewhat similar to a good dry riesling. $8 at Trader Joes.

 

Boy, I've been drinking Argentinian Malbec & Torrontés for years - there are a number of cultivars of this grape but the Muscat parent brings a floral smell and flavor to the wine that can be quite good (see quote below - Source) - by coincidence, last night I grilled some shrimp (which had marinaded for an hour in a honey-soy-ginger-scallion mixture) - usual w/ Asian type food, I like a NZ Sauvignon Blanc but had none, so I had the Alamos Torrontés 2013 (added above) - received an 89 rating in last month's Wine Spectator - one of the best of this variety that I've had recently and a recommendation for those that may want to give the wine a try - I believe $10 or less @ Harris-Teeter!  Dave

Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.

[Brian]

Maybe I'll give Alamos a try. Last month I had a torrontes from the Hermanos label and found it puckery - thick, sweet and sour, oaky.

[SonicMan46]

Maybe I'll give Alamos a try. Last month I had a torrontes from the Hermanos label and found it puckery - thick, sweet and sour, oaky.

Boy that's unusual for Torrontés - I'm sure that Alamos 2013 release will change your mind and should be readily available in the US market - also in reference to my previous post, Washington State makes some excellent wines and usually much better bargains than the Californian offerings - by far the largest producer is Ste. Michelle Wine Estates, which includes a number of brand names like the familiar Ch. Ste. Michelle and Columbia Crest - each makes multiple tiers of variably priced wines - the separate vineyard bottlings and the H3 (Horse Heaven Vineyards) are some of the ones to seek out, and again large amounts are made.

BTW, the second largest producer is Hogue Cellars at 1/14 the production amount - WOW! (Source) - Dave

Ste. Michelle Wine Estates*, in Paterson, sold 14,281,683 gallons of wine in 2011. Chateau St. Michelle, Eroica (partnership), Columbia Crest, 14 Hands, Red Diamond, Domaine Ste. Michelle, Stimson Estate Cellars, Snoqualmie, Northstar, Col Solare (partnership), Spring Valley Vineyard and Kirkland.

Hogue Cellars, in Prosser, sold 1,238,922 gallons of wine in 2011. Brands include Hogue, Hogue Reserve and Genesis.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

... so I had the Alamos Torrontés 2013 (added above) - received an 89 rating in last month's Wine Spectator - one of the best of this variety that I've had recently and a recommendation for those that may want to give the wine a try ...  Dave

Sorry, I had the 2013 myself--missed that "2009" on the image I posted.

BTW, Kono Sauvignon Blanc from NZ is one of my favorites and is cheap $7 at TJ's .My wife makes a spicy sriracha chicken on skewers with pad thai, and it is a perfect accompaniment.

[Brian]

Thanks for the recommendations, both of you. So far two NZ sauv blancs I have loved are Villa Maria and Long Boat, around $14-17 each.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Hess, and Smoking Loon Steelbird non-oaked were both pretty good, with a nice medley of flavors, but still had a hint of that nasty Chardonnay nastiness that has turned me off for years. Beringer was non-remarkable, and I am still trying. I think it may be worth splurging for the Rombauer ($32) just to say I've tried a number of highly-rated Chardonnays and still don't really care for them.

So, this has turned out to be an interesting experiment, and I will continue to experiment with Chardonnay and white Burgundies (will be taking up a collection to buy some Chassange Montrachet). Turns out the ones I tried mentioned above were all the new non-oaked variety. All were enjoyable, drinkable wines, but still had that hint of Chardonnay varietal character I dislike. I went to BevMo recently (still looking for a good local wine store) looking for the 2012 Rombauer, but they were out.

Anyway, tonight we're having the Columbia Crest Grand Estates 2012 Chardonnay, recommended by WS and awarded a score of 90--not bad for a $7 wine! This is unabashedly oaked in the CA style, and is delicious, full, luxurious with oak, caramel/creme brulee, and pine aromas with sufficient complexity and good finish. My wife dislikes it, preferring the non-oaked chardonnays. We usually agree on wines (she always praises my wine-food pairing instincts), but part company in this instance. Looking forward to trying more. ..