Most Underrated Schoenberg Work

[amw]

The Serenade Op. 24 and Suite Op. 29 seem pretty neglected, though that could be just because of odd combinations of instruments. Also Ode to Napoleon.

(Most overrated: Verklärte Nacht by a long shot.)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Probably his solo piano music. Anyone heard it? It's good stuff but nary a mention that I've seen in forever.

[Mandryka]

I feel that it is all underrated ..

Gurrelieder is overrated.

Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?

I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to th 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.

[North Star]

Absolutely haunting work!  Yes, this may be the most underrated of Schoenberg's works!  I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it.  What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.

I used to own a recording [of Die Jakobsleiter] with a fascinating performance conducted by Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.

But surely you have a digital copy of the Maderna recording?

[Jo498]

Gurrelieder is overrated.

Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?

I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence.

How that? Because people do not like Adorno and he lobbied for Schoenberg? Adorno died in 1969. How many people (especially outside German speaking countries) without a degree in philosophy, musicology or similar subjects have even heard of Adorno, much less read his stuff on music?

[Cato]

But surely you have a digital copy of the Maderna recording?

Yes, in the vast "digital" Cato archives!   0:)

Gurrelieder is overrated.

Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?

I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to the 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.

The work has its problems, and certainly in his later years Schoenberg commented that only the "Speaker" section interested him, but taken as a whole I think it is marvelous.

Yes, Die Glueckliche Hand is similar to Erwartung in that it is a short opera with a fairly mysterious text.  However, it needs larger forces for a performance, which is probably why it is not staged much.  The music is in the same "atonal" style of Schoenberg's middle period, and is a barn burner!   

As Jo498 pointed out, Adorno - especially as a philosopher of music - is pretty much ignored today, although one must admit he supported the Second Vienna School quite well.  He seemed to have Thomas Mann's ear quite often.  However, he also wrote a good deal of nonsense disguised as higher thought, intellectual jargon on a Moebius strip looping around on itself.  Undoubtedly he thought he was going somewhere with his ideas.

Concerning the Third Quartet: I have told the story before here on GMG.  I was once playing this during my adolescence at a high volume in the month of July.  My mother used an unpleasant word to describe the work and told me to turn it off, since "the weather's too hot to be playing that  !"   

[Mandryka]

I was still drunk when I wrote that about Adorno and Schoenberg, I was confusing Schoenberg and Stravinsky.

What's your views about the third quartet? I still have problems enjoying the third movement sometimes. It's Leipzig Quartet's performance which I've found the most satisfying,

[snyprrr]

Gurrelieder is overrated.

Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?

I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to th 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.

Never heard 'Gurrelieder'. Saw Ozawa at the library (the redneck library, mind you!!),... put it in... ok... starts off nice... Debussy+Szymanowski+much-milder(no Big Things yet)... ok, I liked it until the singing started, then it just sounded like a billion other Classical singing pieces... what, wait....

what's that I hear??

oh



it's me snorning (...zzZZZzzzz.....  zzZzzz..... zzzZZZZZzzzz....)


Carl Sagan transformed into music?




Well, I do wish I had some Schoenberg I liked around... all at the storage facility... I'd settle for the String Trio at the moment...

[snyprrr]

I was still drunk when I wrote that about Adorno and Schoenberg, I was confusing Schoenberg and Stravinsky.

What's your views about the third quartet? I still have problems enjoying the third movement sometimes. It's Leipzig Quartet's performance which I've found the most satisfying,

you have Arditti too? I thought I found Leipzig just a touch insecure(not the correct word) as compared to the steely Arditti. The Arditti are grimly perfect here, imo.

[Cato]

you have Arditti too? I thought I found Leipzig just a touch insecure(not the correct word) as compared to the steely Arditti. The Arditti are grimly perfect here, imo.

They have that reputation in general! 

[Mandryka]

Never heard 'Gurrelieder'. Saw Ozawa at the library (the redneck library, mind you!!),... put it in... ok... starts off nice... Debussy+Szymanowski+much-milder(no Big Things yet)... ok, I liked it until the singing started, then it just sounded like a billion other Classical singing pieces... what, wait....

what's that I hear??

oh



it's me snorning (...zzZZZzzzz.....  zzZzzz..... zzzZZZZZzzzz....)


Carl Sagan transformed into music?




Well, I do wish I had some Schoenberg I liked around... all at the storage facility... I'd settle for the String Trio at the moment...

This is a very good description of Gurrelieder. I have heard Arditti in 3 - but I have been devoting myself to leipzig for the past couple of months. I'll go and relisten to Arditti now that you've suggested it.

The whole question of how to play Schoenberg is interesting, he is an expressionist by temperament, right? The music's all about very strong and unusual feelings? So steely and grim may not be doing it justice, I don't know.

[Mandryka]

I don't think it registers much at all.

Well, I've even heard it in a prom, with Hans Hotter of all people.

[North Star]

I don't think it registers much at all.

Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 

[Karl Henning]

Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 

Well, and what do those tossers know? 

[ritter]

Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 

You've left out Leibowitz, who didn't record it either, Karlo. Oh, wait... 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 

+1

It always cracks me up when threads like this devolve into chest-thumping "I know best" blah-blah. If I didn't know better I'd have guessed Ken B had done a drive-by on this thread...

[Karl Henning]

You've left out Leibowitz, who didn't record it either, Karlo. Oh, wait... 

There you have it:  With some people, no matter how great the art, it doesn't register 

[Mandryka]

Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 

Well that shows that it's highly rated I suppose - unless they were recording it for other reasons. I imagine it's popular with conservatives and reactionaries, people who mostly like common practice stuff. Conerts may sell out etc.

But come now, compared with some of his later works - Moses und Aaron for example - this Gurrelieder is derivative and leads nowhere. Hence, overrated.

[Karl Henning]

You've just contradicted yourself.  Because Schoenberg later composed Moses und Aron, it is bamboozelry to assert that the Gurre-Lieder "lead nowhere."  It is also a weaselly lapse into the "musical Darwinism" of which James is so fond.

[Mandryka]

You've just contradicted yourself.  Because Schoenberg later composed Moses und Aron, it is bamboozelry to assert that the Gurre-Lieder "lead nowhere."  It is also a weaselly lapse into the "musical Darwinism" of which James is so fond.

OK. Probably yes. I've had enough of trolling for one evening.