432 hz vs 440 hz

[chrisssj2]

If this 432 hz thing is true and in it's effect, don't question me to talk me out of it.
I feel it is important to me just saying. as I have quite some extreme experiences with music.

Are some recordings I download from the internet which are older recorded in 432hz?
So basically any *new* tracks that are 440 hz are *fucked* in a way.
So old mp3/flacs recordings that I download, are recorded in 432 hz right? not converted to 440 hz in some way?

From what year on can I trust recordings?
Can anyone recommend me great classical music that is recorded with 432 hz?

[Gurn Blanston]

If this 432 hz thing is true and in it's effect, don't question me to talk me out of it.
I feel it is important to me just saying. as I have quite some extreme experiences with music.

Are some recordings I download from the internet which are older recorded in 432hz?
So basically any *new* tracks that are 440 hz are *fucked* in a way.
So old mp3/flacs recordings that I download, are recorded in 432 hz right? not converted to 440 hz in some way?

From what year on can I trust recordings?
Can anyone recommend me great classical music that is recorded with 432 hz?

It was not in the lifetime of decent recordings that the standard 'International Pitch', which was 1936, but which was already being done earlier than that so orchestras could play with standard instruments. Even temperament was established in the mid-19th century, so even earlier. That is what made the A=440 the standard pitch.

Since approximately 1980, the historical music movement has adopted lower pitches, the most common being A=430 (not 432, but no matter). It is even more common that A=415. Even lower, almost a semitone lower than standard pitch.

If you want to avoid A=440, then look for such things on your disks as "authentic instruments" or "period instruments". They will all be A=430 or lower. That is, of course, if the music itself dates from before the age of even temperament, approximately 1850 or so.

Alternatively, you can completely ignore the whole thing, which makes me hunt for my tinfoil hat to begin with, but hey, that's just me.

[chrisssj2]

Holy shit. That sounds like almost impossible.
So even recordings begin 1900 had this I take it?
Wow.

So why even 415? why not stick to one standard.

I download most my music via torrents... don't think im gonna find it like that.
Also I wouldn't trust it just because it said "authentic instrument" xD

[petrarch]

So why even 415? why not stick to one standard.

In the olden days, musicians tuned their instruments based on the bell of the local church. The result was that each village had its own tuning reference. Sticking to a standard implies there was such a thing; there wasn't. It only came later, gradually. There is an interesting paper I came across in the 90s, talking about "the case of the disappearing high Cs", basically a result of the reference pitch getting higher and higher and therefore losing high notes with standard instruments. The phenomenon of tuning the instruments ever higher is due to a desire to get notes with more "bite", related to the demands of good sound projection and perception in bigger rooms and auditoriums.

[amw]

Some recordings will tell you specifically what pitch and temperament is being used. Harmonia Mundi's pretty good with this.

[jochanaan]

Well, but my question in the earlier thread still remains: What about the equal-tempered scale?  If you use A432 as your standard, the other 11 notes in the tempered scale would still be off--in some cases, well off--the pure Pythagorean ratios and thus not conform to this apparent alignment with the Universe...

[DaveF]

I download most my music via torrents...

Is that legal?  Just wondering.

[RebLem]

And then there was the practice, in ancient times (ancient times, for this purpose, was dying out during the lifetimes of Bach's sons), it was common to tune string instruments in ways which were unusual even for that day, much less modern days.  If you ever come across a work, which are numerous in the catalogue of Vivaldi especially, called "Concerto for Scordatura Violin..." you may be sure you have come to such a work.

[71 dB]

If this 432 hz thing is true and in it's effect, don't question me to talk me out of it.
I feel it is important to me just saying. as I have quite some extreme experiences with music.

Are some recordings I download from the internet which are older recorded in 432hz?
So basically any *new* tracks that are 440 hz are *fucked* in a way.
So old mp3/flacs recordings that I download, are recorded in 432 hz right? not converted to 440 hz in some way?

From what year on can I trust recordings?
Can anyone recommend me great classical music that is recorded with 432 hz?

What 432 Hz "thing"? A conspiracy?

Hertz is written Hz, not hz. Heinrich Rudolf Hertz must be turning in his grave.
Similarly, desibell is written dB, not db. Let's not make Alexander Graham Bell turn in his grave.

Music is based on scales where notes have fundamental frequencies at roughly (or exactly) 1/12 of an octave apart depending on the system of tuning. 432 Hz is less than 2 % lower frequency than 440 Hz. If all the other notes are also tuned about 1.8 % lower, the proportions of notes stays the same. Absolute values are only important, if you happen to have a perfect pitch. Otherwise the proportions are only thing that counts. Proportions determine the degrees of dissonance and consonance for chords/simultaneously played notes.

So, nothing is *fucked* and nothing needs to be converted. Just enjoy the music. That's my engineer's answer to this odd question.

[Dax]

Opening chords of the Eroica symphony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnhlQUBsd6g

[prémont]

Similarly, desibell is written dB, not db. Let's not make Alexander Graham Bell turn in his grave.[/color]

decibell I suppose

Absolute values are only important, if you happen to have a perfect pitch.

Not quite true. The overall sound gets indeed darker when the pitch is lowered.

[Dax]

decibell I suppose

Or even decibel?

[petrarch]

Opening chords of the Eroica symphony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnhlQUBsd6g

Indeed:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23097.msg794907.html#msg794907

[71 dB]

Or even decibel?

Yes, decibel is of course correct. My mistake.

[jochanaan]

If this 432 hz thing is true and in it's effect, don't question me to talk me out of it.
I feel it is important to me just saying. as I have quite some extreme experiences with music.

Are some recordings I download from the internet which are older recorded in 432hz?
So basically any *new* tracks that are 440 hz are *fucked* in a way.
So old mp3/flacs recordings that I download, are recorded in 432 hz right? not converted to 440 hz in some way?

From what year on can I trust recordings?
Can anyone recommend me great classical music that is recorded with 432 hz?

432 Hz has never been a standard frequency.  And we can't trust recordings made before about 1950 absolutely, since the disc cutters they used to make master discs were not perfectly calibrated.  (Tape machines may have varied somewhat too.)  Most classical music recordings from about 1950 to the present day are pitched at either 440 Hz (American, French, British and most others) or 445 Hz (German and Austrian orchestras).  Some of the older ones may have been pitched at 435 Hz, called "international pitch;" but again, we can't absolutely trust the technology used to make recordings before about 1950.

[zamyrabyrd]

I was looking for a thread about Baroque pitch, for which it seems the last word has not been uttered yet, so hope it is OK to use this one. This came after listening to a Bach cantata for soprano and from a singer's point of view, so much of his vocal music perilously strides the passaggio and lies quite high.

This problem has been discussed with Mozart arias that if they were transposed a tone lower which seems to have been the actual case, then even the Queen of the Night would be accessible to normal sopranos and not just those rare bird coloraturas.

Having variable pitches where one happened to be playing or singing as described in this article, should have been off-putting, or at least to those trained in our era of absolute rather than relative pitch. The instrument with the stable pitch as in a church organ would prevail. Chorton vs. Kammerton)

http://www.idrs.org/publications/controlled/DR/DR9.1/DR9.1.Bukoff.html

I can hardly imagine singing one aria a half or quarter tone higher or lower depending on what instruments were being used. This to me shows a different sensibility in music training. It could be performers were more flexible than we are now. But I think like most modern musicians, upon thinking of a certain piece, there is only one one tonality for it. Like who can imagine the Eroica Symphony in any other key than Eb? This is weird!

Any other thoughts?

ZB

[david johnson]

decibell I suppose

Not quite true. The overall sound gets indeed darker when the pitch is lowered.

thanks

[amw]

I can hardly imagine singing one aria a half or quarter tone higher or lower depending on what instruments were being used. This to me shows a different sensibility in music training.

This has been the case for quite a few performers I've met/worked with. I guess I was lucky to be taught sight transposition skills at a fairly early age—and I've always liked transposition anyway, ever since I noticed that different keys were associated with different colours/textures for my brain—and to sort of train myself to hear quarter tones (can't sing them accurately, but I can barely sing anything accurately, lmao) without trying to correct them. There are other microtones that are just natural parts of the overtone series of course, though most of them are much smaller than quarter tones, and much easier to sing.

It could be performers were more flexible than we are now. But I think like most modern musicians, upon thinking of a certain piece, there is only one one tonality for it. Like who can imagine the Eroica Symphony in any other key than Eb? This is weird!

I quite like the majestic, bright blue D-slightly-sharp major achieved by Gardiner, Savall and Norrington (& other HIP interpreters who play at A=420 or whatever)—a strong contrast to the "correct" velvety-fuchsia E-flat major to be sure, but it casts the music in a different light.

Some things work much better at A=440—the horn solos especially (e.g. end of first movement; third movement trio), for some reason. Other things work better at lower pitch: the new theme in the development of the first movement appearing in E-flat minor instead of E minor. Hard to explain why for any of this, though. It's probably a very personal reaction.

[Gurn Blanston]

Having variable pitches where one happened to be playing or singing as described in this article, should have been off-putting, or at least to those trained in our era of absolute rather than relative pitch. The instrument with the stable pitch as in a church organ would prevail. Chorton vs. Kammerton)

http://www.idrs.org/publications/controlled/DR/DR9.1/DR9.1.Bukoff.html

I can hardly imagine singing one aria a half or quarter tone higher or lower depending on what instruments were being used. This to me shows a different sensibility in music training. It could be performers were more flexible than we are now. But I think like most modern musicians, upon thinking of a certain piece, there is only one one tonality for it. Like who can imagine the Eroica Symphony in any other key than Eb? This is weird!

Any other thoughts?

ZB

IN my limited experience with vocal music, I have noticed a strong tendency for singers to either do only period pitch or only modern pitch. Of course this is a mere generalization because 'period pitch' can range from A=400 to A=450!!  But the commonly used number appears to be between 415-430. I say this based on fully 75% of my collection being period instruments.

So I have found it unusual to see a singer attack both types, but I got this disk because I wanted the Gluck for a different reason,

[asin]B000V7K534[/asin]


and I didn't expect Otter, only ever having heard her in modern instrument performances (440), to do really well. But I was wrong, she was excellent. I believe the EC were pitched at 430, IIRC. I would think this small difference would be even more difficult than a larger one...

[Pat B]

I can hardly imagine singing one aria a half or quarter tone higher or lower depending on what instruments were being used. This to me shows a different sensibility in music training. It could be performers were more flexible than we are now. But I think like most modern musicians, upon thinking of a certain piece, there is only one one tonality for it. Like who can imagine the Eroica Symphony in any other key than Eb? This is weird!

I followed you until the comment about the Eroica. It is in Eb Major regardless of the frequency of A4. Or put a different way, A is A regardless of whether it's tuned to 440 or 415. 440 was not a standard until sometime in the 20th century.