Great Works Of The Last Ten Years: Your Suggestions?

[Karl Henning]

The problem isn't greatness, but in the inartistic simplification of If it's not A Great Work of Art, it isn't worth James's my attention.

Andriessen's De snelheid probably is not A Great Work™.  And that's fine.  It's still brilliant music.

Some (much) of the world's best music, is not The Sonic Monument.

[some guy]

The real problem, I would say, is not being able to recognize or acknowledge that it is possible for intelligent, thoughful, experienced people to disagree about things, even fundamental things. And so, if you disagree with James, you're stupid. Easy.

I'd like to see James, for instance, defend the idea of greatness. All I've seen so far is some argumentum ad nauseum and some ad hominem, neither one of which are any equal, intellectually, to a reasoned argument. Of course, James has assured us several times that the idea of greatness doesn't have to be defended as it is self-evident.

Hence the arguing by assertion. The wiki entry could almost be a direct quote: "X is true I say it's true. Nothing you do can convince me otherwise. If you don't believe in X you have a closed mind. I like it at least. It's true. Oh, shut up and have an open mind! Of course it's true!!"

Here, just for the record, and probably too briefly, is what I find questionable about the idea of greatness. Greatness is first of all not an intrinsic quality, of anything. It is a judgment. The judgment may have come from intelligent people, but it's still a judgment about the work, not a quality of the work itself, although as time goes on, it gets easier and easier to perceive it as a quality of the work itself.

Second, if your sense of a piece's greatness comes from anyone but yourself, then you have allowed other people to do your thinking (and experiencing) for you. Bach's St. Matthew Passion is a great work, I think. In that, I am aware that I am in fundamental agreement with practically everyone who knows this work. But so what? While I am listening to it, I am simply engaged with it, with its sounds and shapes and patterns, not with the judgment of history, not even with my own judgment. It has my full attention. There is no room, while it is playing, for anything but itself. Only afterwards can I think about it as a "great" work, and even then, "a great work" seems not only quite feeble but actually quite impertinent. I don't judge this work so much as it judges me.

In any case, my experience with this work is mine, not anyone else's, and the value of it for me would be the same even if no one else valued it at all. And most people, counting all 7 billion and not just the fraction who listen to classical music, do indeed not value it at all.

I have had positive experiences with all sorts of things, including most of the things that James deems to be great. But also including all sorts of things that James thinks are beneath contempt. Or rather, not beneath at all. Just at the right level for contempt. How is it that someone who can enjoy almost all of the very same things that James enjoys can also enjoy so many things that James does not enjoy? Well, it happens. Probably quite a lot. And an inability to see or to accept that that is possible is hardly a virtue.

[Karl Henning]

The real problem, I would say, is not being able to recognize or acknowledge that it is possible for intelligent, thoughful, experienced people to disagree about things, even fundamental things. And so, if you disagree with James, you're stupid. Easy.

I'd like to see James, for instance, defend the idea of greatness. All I've seen so far is some argumentum ad nauseum and some ad hominem, neither one of which are any equal, intellectually, to a reasoned argument. Of course, James has assured us several times that the idea of greatness doesn't have to be defended as it is self-evident.

Hence the arguing by assertion. The wiki entry could almost be a direct quote: "X is true I say it's true. Nothing you do can convince me otherwise. If you don't believe in X you have a closed mind. I like it at least. It's true. Oh, shut up and have an open mind! Of course it's true!!"

Here, just for the record, and probably too briefly, is what I find questionable about the idea of greatness. Greatness is first of all not an intrinsic quality, of anything. It is a judgment. The judgment may have come from intelligent people, but it's still a judgment about the work, not a quality of the work itself, although as time goes on, it gets easier and easier to perceive it as a quality of the work itself.

Second, if your sense of a piece's greatness comes from anyone but yourself, then you have allowed other people to do your thinking (and experiencing) for you. Bach's St. Matthew Passion is a great work, I think. In that, I am aware that I am in fundamental agreement with practically everyone who knows this work. But so what? While I am listening to it, I am simply engaged with it, with its sounds and shapes and patterns, not with the judgment of history, not even with my own judgment. It has my full attention. There is no room, while it is playing, for anything but itself. Only afterwards can I think about it as a "great" work, and even then, "a great work" seems not only quite feeble but actually quite impertinent. I don't judge this work so much as it judges me.

In any case, my experience with this work is mine, not anyone else's, and the value of it for me would be the same even if no one else valued it at all. And most people, counting all 7 billion and not just the fraction who listen to classical music, do indeed not value it at all.

I have had positive experiences with all sorts of things, including most of the things that James deems to be great. But also including all sorts of things that James thinks are beneath contempt. Or rather, not beneath at all. Just at the right level for contempt. How is it that someone who can enjoy almost all of the very same things that James enjoys can also enjoy so many things that James does not enjoy? Well, it happens. Probably quite a lot. And an inability to see or to accept that that is possible is hardly a virtue.

Fine and interest post, thanks.

A great post?  I leave to others to adjudge 

[jochanaan]

I don't need to defend great work .. the fruits of it are out there aplenty. Simply open your eyes and stop saying dumb crap.

Sadly, great works seem to need defense against many of their defenders.

[Karl Henning]

Simply open your eyes and stop saying dumb crap.

Fit substitution for:  B-4 or O-3

[North Star]

A great post?  I leave to others to adjudge 

That is for the later generations to decide. 

[Ken B]

Babbitry never goes out of fashion.

Babbit that I am I think witch trials a bad thing.

[Daverz]

Babbit that I am I think witch trials a bad thing.

I admit I wasn't following the thread after it turned to kulturkampf and missed the auto de fe.  Damn.

[Philo]

I already think that the works of Marta Gornicka are up there with the greatest of all time. She's currently my favorite composer. I absolutely love everything by her and find her music compelling and thought provoking.

[some guy]

Ken, I think you're referencing the wrong scene. A more apposite scene is the one with the Black Knight.

"Your arm's off!!"

"No it isn't."

[Ken B]

Ken, I think you're referencing the wrong scene. A more apposite scene is the one with the Black Knight.

"Your arm's off!!"

"No it isn't."

I don't follow. What scene where?

[Karl Henning]

Monty Python and the Holy Grail . . . there's a scene in which a woman accused of being a witch weighs the same as a duck.

[Karl Henning]

The Black Knight in the more appropriate scene (as suggested) is gradually dismembered, but refuses to concede defeat.

[Ken B]

The Black Knight in the more appropriate scene (as suggested) is gradually dismembered, but refuses to concede defeat.

I don't see how that relates to Daverz's comment or my reply.

Me: Extreme cultural relativism is fashionable but wrong.
Daverz: Denying cultural relativism makes you a smug asshole.
Me: Then I'm happy to be a smug asshole because I believe that certain cultural practices, like witch-hunting, are bad.

[Karl Henning]

That I could not answer to.

[San Antone]

The problem isn't greatness, but in the inartistic simplification of If it's not A Great Work of Art, it isn't worth James's my attention.

Andriessen's De snelheid probably is not A Great Work™.  And that's fine.  It's still brilliant music.

Some (much) of the world's best music, is not The Sonic Monument.

This.

Speaking simply for myself, but advice I would give to anyone wishing to enjoy new music:

I am curious with a huge appetite for music; I love the journey of discovery; I don't judge what I listen to; but I will decide if I wish to hear more from that source.  This has been my happy lot for around 50 years of listening to music.  I am extremely grateful for having naturally avoided the pitfall of looking for "great" music.

[Mr Bloom]

"Hyperion" by GF Haas is one of the best works I've heard written in the last 10 years...

Indeed, everyone is telling about In vain because it's available on record, but Haas has written much more interesting and beautiful music, like Hyperion or Poeme for orchestra.

[Christo]

The real problem, I would say, is not being able to recognize or acknowledge that it is possible for intelligent, thoughful, experienced people to disagree about things, even fundamental things. [...] including all sorts of things that [...] thinks are beneath contempt. Or rather, not beneath at all. Just at the right level for contempt. [...] an inability to see or to accept that that is possible is hardly a virtue.

Happy to read this. Love and admiration is not the problem here, but contempt. Too often unjustified and also intellectually immature. 

[Karl Henning]

The problem isn't greatness, but in the inartistic simplification of If it's not A Great Work of Art, it isn't worth James's my attention.

Andriessen's De snelheid probably is not A Great Work™.  And that's fine.  It's still brilliant music.

Some (much) of the world's best music, is not The Sonic Monument.

And then, there are these recent threads which buy right into the monuments fetish.

[North Star]

The problem isn't greatness, but in the inartistic simplification of If it's not A Great Work of Art, it isn't worth James's my attention.

Andriessen's De snelheid probably is not A Great Work™.  And that's fine.  It's still brilliant music.

Some (much) of the world's best music, is not The Sonic Monument.

And then, there are these recent threads which buy right into the monuments fetish.

Perhaps. On the other hand, one has to start somewhere. Of course it would be sad if someone thought that anything that's not good enough to be listed in such a thread is not worth listening. I also wonder - not really - what 'great', 'brilliant', 'best', and 'sonic monument' mean, and how their meanings differ. . .