Norman Lebrecht bashes the Vienna Philharmonic

[Cato]

;D ;D ;D

To quote Mel Gibson's last word in Braveheart: "FREEEEDOM!"   0:)

[jochanaan]

If there is vestigial sexism in the Vienna Philharmonic's hiring practices, it is not exclusively a Nazi trait, so I think we can lay the Nazi ghost to rest, at least for this thread.

It would be lovely, though, if the governing directors of the orchestra (whoever they be) could find it in their hearts to practice a little affirmative action, at least until the male-to-female ratio is a little closer to parity.  If they can't, though, there's not much we as mere music fans can do about it.  They are, after all, an independent organization (however much the Austrian government supports them).  The question then becomes, Can we live with this vestigial sexism?  They really are one of the best orchestras in the world, and only the New York Philharmonic has been in existence in anything like its present form for as long as the WP.

Am I talking sense?  If it were a minor orchestra, fans would think nothing of simply not buying their recordings--but it is the Vienna Philharmonic...

[Jo498]

This interview/transcription linked above is almost 20 years old or so, but I doubt than ANY major orchestra (like Berlin, Vienna, Concertgebouw, Chicago etc.) is even now anywhere close to gender parity.
The guys in the interview make some very weak points (male bonding, dirty jokes), but although they seem somewhat at a loss to express it, they apparently feel rather strongly about the advantages of an "all-male club".
One could imagine that men do have the same advantages here as in other highly competitive fields. But here the data don't fit all that well if we take star soloists and singers into account where women might even have an edge.

[The new erato]

This interview/transcription linked above is almost 20 years old or so, but I doubt than ANY major orchestra (like Berlin, Vienna, Concertgebouw, Chicago etc.) is even now anywhere close to gender parity.

In which case they avoid half the talent in the world.

[Jo498]

The point is rather that all the orchestras but the Vienna Phil have, to my knowledge, not officially restrictive gender policies and have had female players for several decades. Still, as pointed out in the interview, the differences to the restrictive Vienna Phil are nowhere as significant as one would imagine. Not close to 50% female, most females in tutti violins/violas, of course harp, some woodwind. Of course there are quite a few by now famous femals brass players (like Neunecker or Balsom). But the very fact that these seem some kind of sensation (other than femals flutists) shows the gap.
Now one answer is that the Vienna Phil are not really worse, but they are at least honest and open about it whereas everywhere else the same prejudices and mechanisms are in power, but are officially denied.
Another explanation is that women naturally have disadvantages in highly competitive fields, more or less "by nature".
But going even further to the "top", that is from the best orchestras to the best soloists, we do not have a dearth of women. I didn't count, but by gut feeling there are probably a few more female top star violinists than male ones, nowadays, and sigificantly more than 50 years ago (although there were already quite a few female star pianists, violinists etc. when most orchestras were almost exclusively male).
So apparently the gender prejudice does work differently here. Or what gives? I do not know, but one should beware of the all to simple answers.

[The new erato]

37% female in the Oslo Philharmonic, most of the females in the strings section (except for the double bass where they are outnumbered 9 to 0, obviously for physical reasons I guess). Also heavily outnumbered in the brass department (except for one trombonist). There obviously are physical reasons why women don't pick up (!) the double bass and larger brass.

[Jo498]

37% is probably closer to parity than most other big orchestras. It may be that in string-dominated chamber and baroque ensembles women fare even better. So I guess there has been some change since the interview took place.

[Cosi bel do]

In Germany, there are 30% of women in orchestras, on average. But you have to consider that an evolution in hiring takes time to be seen in the whole orchestra. Actually, women are just 50% of the personnel among 25-30 y.o. musicians.

But the sexism at the Berlin Philharmonic should not be forgotten, and things have not changed much there either. No blind auditions. Actually, there were 17% women among its members in 2007, now only 14%.

[amw]

But going even further to the "top", that is from the best orchestras to the best soloists, we do not have a dearth of women.

These days, the top rank of soloists tends to be chosen more for visual than auditory impact. That applies to both men and women by the way. The recent 'evening out' at the top is not because things have gotten better for women but because things have gotten worse for men (you can't be a star and look like David Oistrakh anymore).

I might believe the top is unbiased when people of any sex who are fat, ugly, old, disabled, autistic, schizophrenic, trans*/gender-variant etc—or possess any other features widely regarded as undesirable—can become a star soloist purely on the basis of artistic ability. (Obviously that's unlikely to happen, if any of those groups [or any other groups of 'undesirables' that might appear in future] gains cultural clout players who meet those characteristics will be promoted in the name of diversity, while leaving the basic 'problem' unaddressed.)

There obviously are physical reasons why women don't pick up (!) the double bass and larger brass.

This also presumably explains why there are so few female harpists.

(Actually that's another weird thing, whose decision was it to gender certain instruments? Like, orchestral musicians seem to think the flute is a 'feminine' instrument and only want women and really camp guys to play it. Male harpists are considered to be nonexistent, women can play any percussion instrument except the timpani... It's frankly bizarre.)

Also Florestan is not just a weird monarchist, he's a ULTRA weird DOUBLE monarchist. So there!

[The new erato]

This also presumably explains why there are no female harpists.

Well, you don't sit with the harp in your lap, or trudge it around in a case like a double bass.

[amw]

Well, you don't sit with the harp in your lap, or trudge it around in a case like a double bass.

Harps do get trundled around as well, and are hella inconvenient to do so with. They also don't weigh very much. Nor do double basses or tubas. (Actually the only physical thing I could see possibly discouraging women from playing certain instruments is the massive lung capacity required for tuba and trombone, which might be beyond the average female at first. Double bass wouldn't be a problem unless you were really tiny, I know a few female bassists and they're generally fine—and as with other string instruments they do make 1/2 sizes etc. I once saw a 10 year old playing bass in a youth orchestra. It was adorable)

[Cosi bel do]

What's funny is that this image of the harp being an instrument for women seems quite recent, not older than the 1950s-60s I'd say. In  the times of Hasselmans, Tournier, Salzedo, it was even quite a noble instrument for men, one of the main instruments taught at the Conservatoire de Paris. In the famous French comedy La grande vadrouille, there's a scene in which De Funès hides an English parachutist from the Germans in his lodge of the Opéra, and he puts him at the harp as if he was giving him a lesson. Actually, harpists becoming conductors were not rare. Salzedo is an example, and Jean-Jacques Werner is another: conductor and professor of conducting at the CNSM for a few years, he was a harpist at first.

[Florestan]

Also Florestan is not just a weird monarchist, he's a ULTRA weird DOUBLE monarchist. So there!

Thanks for providing my new signature line. I'll proudly wear it as badge of honor.

[Florestan]

The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. 

This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.

So there! 

[Que]

Just to refresh everybody's memory on a good old GMG tradition:: let us play the ball, and not the man - whether openly or covertly.

On topic: what surprises me most it the assumption that hiring "native" Austrians, or even just the male variety, would be necessary to preserve the VPO's orchestral tradition. This seems to me questionable. Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra? And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time? As historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.

Q

[mc ukrneal]

The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else,

But this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness. Of course, you can change the wording to shift around the tone and degree, but the result is still the same.

By the way, I don't understand those who say the Vienna O is too good to stop buying their music or going to their concerts. They are one of dozens of excellent orchestras. We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.

[Florestan]

Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra?

That is actually a prerequisite:

The members of the orchestra are chosen from the orchestra of the Vienna State Opera. This process is a long one, with each musician having to prove his or her capability for a minimum of three years' playing for the opera and ballet. Once this is achieved the musician can then ask the board of the Vienna Philharmonic to consider an application for a position in the orchestra.

Now that I think of it, here is another target for the affirmative-action crusaders: The Vienna State Opera orchestra. Boy, looks like Vienna is indeed a hotbed of sexism and misogynism. One wonders how come that there are that many women still living in the city. 

And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time?

Absolutely --- and this is exactly what happened in the case of WPO: gradually, women have made their appearance in the orchestra and the trend is probably going to accelerate as younger generations of male musicians, more sensitive to the charms and musical profficiency of their female counterparts will replace the older, more conservative members of the orchestra. When a critical mass of WPO members will share such views, then the self-management will work wonders and the wildest dreams of amw will be exceeded. We might even see a female concertmaster, or a lady playing tuba.

As historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.

Fixed. 

[Florestan]

But this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness.

Of course, but that was precisely my point: preaching openness while in the same time wanting everybody to think and act exactly the same way is at best self-deluding and at worst hypocritical. 

By the way, I don't understand those who say the Vienna O is too good to stop buying their music or going to their concerts. They are one of dozens of excellent orchestras. We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.

That's a very good point (not least because I made it myself earlier ). You don't approve of WPO's practices? Okay, stop buying their recordings and attending their concerts. It's that simple. 

[Cato]

The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. 

This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.

So there! 

Amen Brother!

I am reminded of the 1960's and the "Hippies," who proclaimed non-conformism and being different for the sake of being different...and they ended up looking, acting, protesting, and smelling the same! "Non-conformist conformity."

Steve Martin satirized this in the 1970's:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oTwV3vG73cU

[Florestan]

Amen Brother!

I am reminded of the 1960's and the "Hippies," who proclaimed non-conformism and being different for the sake of being different...and they ended up looking, acting, protesting, and smelling the same! "Non-conformist conformity."

Steve Martin satirized this in the 1970's:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oTwV3vG73cU