Norman Lebrecht bashes the Vienna Philharmonic

[Gurn Blanston]

We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.

Some nice starters:

Concentus musicus Wein
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
Concilium musicum Wein
Wiener Akademie
Ars Antiqua Austria

and I could go on...

[Ken B]

Neal

But this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness.

Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:

Your dichotomy is false. You can also value leaving other people alone or respecting their choices. The VPO are self-governing. They have heard your complaints from other mouths, and made their choices. Not everyone agrees with your preferences and values, and you shouldn't expect them to.  If you disapprove of the VPO that strongly, forego them. It seems like you won't do that but you still want to feel like you're defending a principle so you bad mouth them instead. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. 

[mc ukrneal]

Neal
Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:

Your dichotomy is false. You can also value leaving other people alone or respecting their choices. The VPO are self-governing. They have heard your complaints from other mouths, and made their choices. Not everyone agrees with your preferences and values, and you shouldn't expect them to.  If you disapprove of the VPO that strongly, forego them. It seems like you won't do that but you still want to feel like you're defending a principle so you bad mouth them instead. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. 

So if they choose to discriminate against blacks or jews or whomever, for example, I should just let them do it? Is that what you are saying? What about slavery? If we allow the VP, for example, to choose to do what it wants, aren't we potentially taking choices away from others?

[Ken B]

So if they choose to discriminate against blacks or jews or whomever, for example, I should just let them do it? Is that what you are saying? What about slavery? If we allow the VP, for example, to choose to do what it wants, aren't we potentially taking choices away from others?

"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?

I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?

[mc ukrneal]

"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?

But the part I quoted above seems to say precisely what you say you are not saying (leaving other people alone or respecting their choices- your words). So what are you saying? Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying? In which case, my question would be directed to them.

I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?

Oh come now, there are lots of ways, whether they be simply my stopping the purchase of their goods and services all the way to acts that are heinous and callous. Realistically, one could boycot them, encourage others to do so, picket them, try to revoke their funding or scare off donors, lawsuits, bad PR, etc. I mean, look at what was done to get them to change their polity in the first place - I am sure it involved some of the above and many other actions/activities.

[Ken B]

Neal: "Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying?"
Ken B: "Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:"

So yes, that is what I mean.

[mc ukrneal]

Neal: "Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying?"
Ken B: "Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:"

So yes, that is what I mean.

Thank you. That clarifies things.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I might believe the top is unbiased when people of any sex who are fat, ugly, old, disabled, autistic, schizophrenic, trans*/gender-variant etc—or possess any other features widely regarded as undesirable—can become a star soloist purely on the basis of artistic ability.

Thomas Quasthoff? Itzhak Perlman?

On topic: what surprises me most it the assumption that hiring "native" Austrians, or even just the male variety, would be necessary to preserve the VPO's orchestral tradition. This seems to me questionable. Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra? And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time? As historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.

Possibly relevant: the Concertgebouw and the Czech Philharmonic used to have a rule that their chief conductor had to come from the same country as the orchestra. They both broke this rule around the same time. They are still great orchestras, so bending their traditions doesn't seem to have hurt them.

[Phrygian]

The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. 

This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.

So there! 

Three cheers for Florestan and Cato for their excellent ideas and humour!!  Such rare birds in our incredibly dull world of group-think!!  I'm glad to have met you both but only sorry it's come at the end of message-boarding for me. 

"Life is larger than ideology".  Discuss.  (Something for the Christmas dinner table of 8 adults - love it.)

And, you know what, so is the Vienna Philharmonic and their talented, refined (and handsome!) musicians.  Many of them share the same train home with me after the "konzerts".  I won't be at the Neujahrskonzert as it's just a Christmas cracker or Sylvester snowflake, after all.  And they raise money for charity through this konzert.

Try telling that to Norman Lebrecht - the same man who pompously declared "there's no irony in Mahler".  Gotta love that.

Here's the spoof on discrimination, which I originally referred to, from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njK6zQp2Fdk

Spoiler alert:  sense of humour required.

[mc ukrneal]

Of course, but that was precisely my point: preaching openness while in the same time wanting everybody to think and act exactly the same way is at best self-deluding and at worst hypocritical. 

But why do you link the two? These are completely separate ideas.

[Cosi bel do]

And, you know what, so is the Vienna Philharmonic and their talented, refined (and handsome!) musicians.  Many of them share the same train home with me after the "konzerts".  I won't be at the Neujahrskonzert as it's just a Christmas cracker or Sylvester snowflake, after all.  And they raise money for charity through this konzert.

Well, they may raise money, but they also cancelled the Valse Triste because they won't pay the fee to the Sibelius rights holders. Something like 2000€...

[Ken B]

Well, they may raise money, but they also cancelled the Valse Triste because they won't pay the fee to the Sibelius rights holders. Something like 2000€...

Is this refering to the sold out new year's concert? If they can sell out the concert without playing VT then they have an extra 2K euro for the charity.  Why not then? I do not see why that would be to their discredit.

[Daverz]

"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?

I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?

Fortunately Austrian and EU law is more enlightened than glibertarian talking points.

[Ken B]

Fortunately Austrian and EU law is more enlightened than glibertarian talking points.

d

I confess to curiosity about you too. Can you express disgreement without adding personal insults?

[Que]

I don't see any purposeful discussion anymore, just a very bad atmosphere.

So, I'm afraid it ends here.. (relieved is probably more accurate. .. )

Q